[Pteryx]

I read this article years ago. FFXI's culture, particularly WRT jobs and subjobs, reminds me of it.

sandwich

[Mhurron]

Point?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think he's saying FFXI is a comformist culture. That's not really true.

EXP PTs are the only conformist culture aspect I know of and even then, that's not always the case, a good player just has multiple subs like up. The conformist player looks at what high level or JP players do and copies that without thinking about it. And example would be a SAM in the dunes subbing /NIN.

I remember back when COR came out /WHM and /NIN were automatically what everyone used and JPs played it conservative and stuck to /WHM. Eventually, over time, people became rather vocal about /RNG's benefits and, on occasion, I'll see a JP with /RNG or even /DNC, which makes me smile. The more subs you have, the better.

[Murphie]

I didn't really see how that article made any sort of profound statements about anything.

[Jei]

I think it's kinda related to how NA players critique FFXI long ago. That everyone in FFXI "looked the same."

[Ziero]

It's an interesting read, but a far cry from todays FFXI. Though many people will have the same or similar gear (Haubs/Scorps mainly), that's due to that gear being really kick ass and highly attainable.

But even to this day there are still heated debates over which gear is the best where and why and which subs provide the best boots to a job and their current situation. Though that may be an NA/EU thing as I can't say how JPs discuss it, I can say that there is no single 'best' way in FFXI.

But I think that's totally off the point, still it's an interesting read.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Jei

I think it's kinda related to how NA players critique FFXI long ago. That everyone in FFXI "looked the same."

Funny that, when the same piece of gear gives the same stat boost and everyone doing a similar job needs similar stat boosts.

[Lunaryn]

I think the point is more in the "it's understood" part of it. Even in NA parties these days, but especially in mixed parties, communication is kept to a minimum. Everyone has expectations as to what someone should bring to the party based on their job. Everyone has expectations as to how roles will be assigned based on party composition, though the leader is usually expected to clarify if the job makeup is ambiguous. There is a vast amount of proper xp preparation and behavior that is understood. There are clashes between differing cultures within the game, primarily between older or more dedicated players and newer or more casual players, but even in these cases it's marked by a general disdain for the opposing viewpoint on both sides, and people are often loathe to speak up on it until they're fed up enough to drop the party. People do speak in /p often enough, but this is arguably far more often chatter than anything actually relevant to the jobs people are performing in the party. If there is talk about the party's tactics or commands given, it's usually done infrequently, and as tersely as possible, such that even when the autotranslator isn't used, it looks like something that could be given its own autotranslator phrase.

At least, that's what my pickup party experiences have been like.

Edit: I should clarify that the "mixed parties" above are ones with a clear split between a JP portion and an NA portion. Party leader is usually NA. In my experience mostly-JP pickups are a lot less reluctant to discuss party tactics (using the autotranslator), but there are still plenty of basic expectations. As far as non-autotranslator talk I'm not fluent enough to judge how much of this is or is not chatter.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by Lunaryn

I think the point is more in the "it's understood" part of it.

Your post covers the vast majority of it, yes. It may be worse in English partly because of our relatively smaller search comments compared to Japanese (spaces are required in English, we have no kanji, it takes two English characters on average to match one hiragana or katakana character...) not allowing us to convey detailed information, thus forcing us to adapt by having extremely narrow-minded views on jobs.

Not to mention, I can completely see a PUP being in the position of the O'Hare cashier in that last tale...

"{Party} {Do you need it?}"
"Sure, but am I being asked to DD, or heal, or what?"
"{Party} {Do you need it?}"
"{Automaton} {head} {body} {Which?}"
"{Party} {Do you need it?}"
"{Front line job} {Back line job} {Which?}"
"nm got a war"
*PUP tears hair out*

And if you have a weird sub? Either you just don't get invites, or people fail to notice until you get to camp and then kick you just because the assumptions run so deep that discussion and thought are anathema. -- Pteryx