Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

[Murphie]

I still don't see how that is somehow a disagreement.

[Sevv]

(Yes, even for GA WARs. They could /SAM and do more damage... and probably be dead within the first 3 mobs.)

Had to focus in on this one, I have partied with some War/Sam with perdu voulges, aberks, etc and they do very well including damage migration. In a burn pt no real war owns hate, unless one of the warriors are that much better equipped than the rest.

[Ziero]

I don't think it would be game breaking or what have you if it was added to a new job of some kind, infact I would have thought Dnc would have been great with a natural dual wield...as long as they only got up to DW II and only got that post 37 (so that /nin would still be best for subbing DW). But then again I also thought Dnc should be able to use Katana like those bitches in FFT~

I will say this though, what sub would benefiet a War with natural dual wield the most? /Sam and /Thf would still be better with Gaxe, as would /Drg. /Dnc could work, but it would be more of a lateral movement in terms of Dmg and TP gain then an increase, maybe /Blu could work, but DW wouldn't really increase it's DD output any and /Mnk couldn't really make any use of DW as again it would be an option not an increase. People would still /nin because it provides that incredible defense that no other job offers.

As for basing the game changes around the actions of the 'lesser' calibur players, well I can't say that would improve anything really. Though they do make good players look great and great players look awesome, they really shouldn't be the measuring stick for anything in terms of of skills and tactics about this game.

[Sevv]

I don't think it would be game breaking or what have you if it was added to a new job of some kind, infact I would have thought Dnc would have been great with a natural dual wield...as long as they only got up to DW II and only got that post 37 (so that /nin would still be best for subbing DW). But then again I also thought Dnc should be able to use Katana like those bitches in FFT~

I will say this though, what sub would benefiet a War with natural dual wield the most? /Sam and /Thf would still be better with Gaxe, as would /Drg. /Dnc could work, but it would be more of a lateral movement in terms of Dmg and TP gain then an increase, maybe /Blu could work, but DW wouldn't really increase it's DD output any and /Mnk couldn't really make any use of DW as again it would be an option not an increase. People would still /nin because it provides that incredible defense that no other job offers.

As for basing the game changes around the actions of the 'lesser' calibur players, well I can't say that would improve anything really. Though they do make good players look great and great players look awesome, they really shouldn't be the measuring stick for anything in terms of of skills and tactics about this game.

IF war had natural DW and you were going to sub anything other then ninja, it would be sam for third eye and meditate, but still /nin would out weigh all subs because of shadows.

[Feba]

Well, I'm not talking about just WAR. I mean more "every melee job except SAM, DRG, DRK, and PLD"; or even "Everyone can dual wield. I mean ffs it doesn't take that much intelligence to put one sword in one hand and another sword in another."

For instance, RNG dual wielding daggers for accuracy, at levels and places where Utsusemi isn't really helping pulling.

[Sevv]

If shadows aren't needed for pulling or damage migration then they should be rng/war.

[Murphie]

I suppose it would be an interesting experiment to see what the game was like if every job could DW, but say, only NIN got DW traits. Or something. To see if it's really shadows or if it's DW that draws people to /NIN.

But I think we all pretty much know that in most cases at least, it's the shadows.

[Ziero]

I know you didn't specifically mean War, but it's one of the most common reasons to use /nin without Utsu.

But for other jobs, it would just be overpowered. I mean, Thf/War with natural DW would just be sick. With their ability to move hate around and high Eva, they don't rely as much on shadows as other jobs do, so they would lose very little while gaining a lot. But Rng/whatever with DW would get a nice stat boost from the offhanded weapon, but they would drop quickly as Rng often rely on /nin to save them from when they inevitably pull hate. Blu could get away with DW and not subbing nin as they really have very little use for most shields if they're subbing something other then /nin. And I can see Cors goin with the stat weapon in the offhand and not worrying too much as they're not as big on hate as Rng.

It would be a great buff to low Dmg per hit jobs and melee support classes, but most DDs would still sub /nin. It would also be a major boon to thf who's sort of a mix of 'support' with their hate shifting abilities and DD with their high burst Dmg and strong(when geared right) melee DoT. And Blus would absolutely love getting a natural DW while being able to sub War or Thf.

And just for the record, it can be pretty damn hard to use two different weapons effectively at the same time.
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If shadows aren't needed for pulling or damage migration then they should be rng/war.

That's the thing, if jobs got a natural DW, they could go Rng/War and still have that offhanded racc weapon.

[Murphie]

I don't know. I manage to use both my charm and good looks at the same time.

[Ziero]

Sadly not everyone can be as talented as you =(

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

RNG/NIN is sensible for the +Ranged Accuracy /NIN provides, but it comes to the point where after RNG gets its second Accuracy Bonus trait that /NIN starts to be superflous. RNGs could actually stay /WAR from level 30 and suffer little in regards to accuracy, while the urban legend is that /WAR isn't good until 70.

No, having a full on STR/Attack build on RNG isn't that great until 70. When you hit 70, RNG gets its fourth and final Accuracy Bonus trait and that's really what puts RNG to the point they can drop some ranged accuracy gear and add in STR/Attack. But Alla RNGs will still claim /WAR isn't good til 70+

Some CORs will argue /NIN is good because like RNG, they use guns and those Archers/Trailers knive/kukri. /RNG would have trumped anything Archer's knives would have provided. Trailer's Kukri x2 would only slightly outmatch /RNG's two Accuracy Bonus traits, but here's the thing, COR/RNG with one Trailer's Kukri will always have more Ranged Accuracy than COR/NIN because COR doesn't have any native Accuracy Bonus traits. COR could only gain such traits through /RNG, /DNC and /DRG.

So while RNG/NIN has some weight to it, being that it gives the best possible accuracy via Dual Wield, the "monkey-see/monkey-do" approach to /NIN on COR doesn't succeed nearly as well as some would like to believe. Funnier still is some CORs try to ape the STR/Attack builds of RNG as /NIN. Doesn't work the same. Works out a little better if you /DNC or /RNG, but only by a slight margin compared to how it pans out for RNG main, even if we're talking just RNG/NIN.

I'd argue only a handful of any job Dual Wields for stat bonuses. RNG might, COR tries to, it works out all right for WAR and DNC, but when you start moving into two-hander jobs, the intent behind /NIN becomes increasingly clear and all the more shallow.

They all do it for Utsusemi.

Would giving Dual Wield to other jobs change anything?

I seriously doubt it. People will sub /NIN in meritpo and some not even having the sub fully levelled.

[Zoltar]

i personally don't think the dual-wield option would fit well for the other job classes...perhaps in a future job more suited to it?

[Ziero]

RNG/NIN is sensible for the +Ranged Accuracy /NIN provides...*snip*

I think the point is more to find out what is a more prefered boost from /nin, Utsu or DW. If what the OP said were to happen, then a Cor/Rng could get the stat boost from their offhand weapon with the JTs and JAs of Rng. Which would be win/win unless you're pulling and sleeping and need shadows to stay alive.

And it wouldn't just be the stat boost, but the 10% delay reduction from just DW I that would boost any one-handed melee class. Specifically Blu, Thf and Dnc would recieve major boosts from that as they can sub more effective subs (/thf, /war and /sam respectively for example) while still getting a faster swing time, the stat boost from the second weapon and the extra hit on WSs.

If I, as a thf, had the option to DW while subbing /War, there's no way I'd say no...unless we were fighting an AoE spammer but those things suck. And most one handed weapon users are generally pretty good at keeping either a low hate profile and/or surviving a few hits to the point that Utsu in a party would be negligible (Rng being a major exception). Giving all jobs at least DW I would be a major boost to many of the 'weaker'(and by that, I mean per hit, non-WS) meleeing jobs as they could put more offensive power behind each swing. And at the same time, most Two handers would see little to no boost from that kind of change.

[Akashimo]

i personally don't think the dual-wield option would fit well for the other job classes...perhaps in a future job more suited to it?

Thief would based on other FF games. Thief and Ninja often are the same/similar classes, where Ninja is the upgrade of the job. Even in this game, thf/nin is just as superior, if not more than ninja when it comes to evasion.

If they were to make it possible for a non-nin to have DW, and it was on THF, I really, really rather it not be subable. Wars can have it given that they're weapon masters, so they can have that trait at a 10-37 range.

Dancer would also seem to fit the use of DW natively.

[Ziero]

Thf have far more evasion then Nins. Depsite both having A+ eva, Thf gets 4 eva bonuses. Interestingly enough, I believe both classes also have an A- ranking in their main weapon.