Petition-SE's lackluster actions towards stolen accounts

[Lunaped]

You guys do make good points. Maybe someone can make a sticky on here that says "How to protect FFXI" and give us noobs good ideas and such. I have limited acces and this is one of few websites I can access from Work. SImilar to how others put on here "how to defeat bcnm30, as easy as 1-2-3"

And I'm sure it will help Old and new players, plus pre-teens to Grandpaernts that play the game. Just a thought.


Oh and I called them because my room mate dosn't think well underpressure, and gave up lol. He didnt' think to ask if they could check and verfiy that it was his account by accessing previous credit card usage history. They told me they can't and don't do that, yet other people i talk to on game said that's how they proved it was their accounts. I was just helping him out.

I might make a thread like that, not sure unless a MOD will want to sticky it.

On another note, when calling, make sure that credit cards haven't been exposed to the person who has stolen the account. Don't want to give them more ammunition.

He should call and talk to them himself. How he should do this if he doesn't think well under pressure is to write it down on paper, especially what he wants to point out and that are important. It's his account, and only he can actually talk to them about his sensitive data (CC #, etc).

[eticket109]

Has anyone in here actually dealt with a lost account?

POL doesn't ask for the original information to verify an account. They ask for the current information. How can that, in any way, be beneficial to the person that lost their account by whatever means?

The policy is by no means consistent either. Some people have been able to provide registration codes and reclaim accounts, others have not. When the general advice is 'keep calling until someone helps you', then things need to change in my opinion.

I agree that some responsibility lies with the account holder, but to say that SE bears no responsibility for resolving the situation is ludicrous. Yes, the recent hackings were the result of a nasty keylogger embedded into a script on a well established FFXI resource site. Most people would know how to protect themselves from such things but not everyone is as computer savvy as we are. I deal with college educated professionals on an hourly basis that don't know where the Start button is in Windows. It's easy to see how someone playing a game in their free time for fun may not be up on what Active-X or Javascript is. Sure it's obviously something they should educate themselves on but that by no means should wipe any obligation off the hands of SE and POL.

Here's a more personal example. Just about 3 months ago, my linkshell's forum database was hacked. All in all, 8 accounts were compromised and moved to different servers. The compromised accounts had shared login information within the PM system of the forums. This wasn't someone casually handing out their info. These were sacks sharing info due to being unable to miss a run or two longtime friends giving info out to watch each other's accounts during a trip or whatever. They weren't IMing or emailing the info. They weren't sending it in game. They were doing so on a private and secured site. Luckily, 7 of the 8 were able to recover their accounts. However, despite SE/POL admitting the accounts were compromised, not a single account had their server transfers reversed.

Recovering lost items and restoring the account to wear it was before may not be an easy task. I can grant you that. Other MMOs though, especially that real big one, seem to have an easier time at restoration though. Maybe that's something to look into. However, the reclaiming process itself is horrendous and can easily be changed. Simply allowing someone to reclaim their account by giving their original billing info would be a huge step forward.

[Khidir]

funny i used IE and didnt get any of the hacks, its really about security settings and there are people that will tell you that, it's really about how you cant recover info even if you have a record history of payment...and the old ccs

se can even track the new CC to where it is(Read: china) and still do nothing about it.

we arent addressing keylogger, we're addressing attempts to recover stolen accounts.

as far as keylogger goes...can't SE keep the info on the server side?

[Phanex]

I contacted SE and simple asked how would my room mate be able to prove he's the original owner. They told me the only two ways to do this was by 1) Giving them the current Payment info on the account or 2) going to the police, and getting a court order. I didn't ask for where, who, or what the credit card number was, just kinda weird they wanted a court order to release the info. After they court order is issued to them, it will be then sent to another "Dept" to deal with it.

He called them this past Monday, and they had no way of knowing how things were going. He asked could he be transfered to the dept handling his case, and they couldn't because it's in another building, and no we don't/can't give that number out. I can't remeber atm which it was. I told him next time to ask for the phone number of the Main Headqrts in Japan and go there for help. /shrug. It's more of a joke than anything else.

So that's our case with SE and the Stolen account. So far they haven't moved his charcter off our server yet. But we are sure it was gutted out. Again, he just wants his taru back. I sent him this link so that he can start upgrading his PC to help in the future, but if he can't get his account back, he's not bothering to play. I dont' blame him, 3 years of work down the drain. Items and Gill can be replaced, but your character and lvls can't.

I could type out the whole conversation I had with the lady, but it would pointless, she kept telling me "Sorry sir my hands are tied, I can't do anything for you unless you can prove to me that this is his account by providing me with the current payment information." Again this is where ppl calling in to claim to be someone else to steal accounts, but if you can prove with past billing info this is your account, why can't you. And if you "sold your account to get money and trying to get it back to sale or use it again" they can flag your account if this ever happens again. I dunno, just ranting, sorry.

[bungiefan]

The issue here is that proving you ever owned the account is nearly impossible with their current policy, and their current policy ignores common sense. If your account is stolen, the first thing the thief is going to do is change the current account information, so asking for the current account information is comletely nonsensical. There's also no security question in place to stop unauthorized persons from changing that vital account information. They will not accept previous account information as proof you owned the account and it was stolen from you, and they won't accept registration codes, both of which they must keep on record for at least some time because of credit card billing recording rules.

All this does is drive away people that lose years of work to a theif, and encourage the theives to just continue doing what they're doing, because they don't get punished for it.

Other MMOs accept previous account information as proof you owned the account, and actually allow recovery of accounts that way. Square of Europe has to follow European regulations that make them give you the account details if you were ever billed for it via credit card, so at least you can recover a European account. American and Japanese accounts are essentially unrecoverable.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I know, it never hurts to add more to it. SE has done this before on their surveys i filled one out a month ago, and people have each year...The customer survey have their questions skewed to imply that the problem may be on the customer side but it's a complaint of the business.

There are only two ways you lose your account (1) is being loose with your account to other people and (2) not keeping your computer secure or browsing on the same PC you play the game on. If you play on Xbox360 or PS2 #1 is the only way it happens.

In either scenario, how is SE to blame? That's right, both scenarios fall on the user.

So basically what this "petition" would be is a slap in the face to someone that extended a line of communication just recently. They skewed thier questions to imply the fault of the user because it can only be the users fault.

[IfritnoItazura]

They skewed thier questions to imply the fault of the user because it can only be the users fault.

Did anyone actually read the survey? There's no "skewing" involved; the questions are quite suitably bland, unlike some of the polls on this site. >_>

In case anyone is still confused:
1. Your computer, your account info, your responsibility. It's your fault if you let your account info get stolen.
2. If you're the real account owner, with all the info originally provided to S-E, then, yes, S-E missed up by not coming up with a way to get your account back after you've lost it.

The customer survey is the best way to let S-E know that #2 is a big concern to the player base. S-E plans on reading the survey, take advantage of it. (I did.)

Point #1 is NOT S-E's problem--it's the players responsibility.

The petition mentioned in OP is redundant at best, and most likely worthless.

[Dark Raz]

Did anyone actually read the survey? There's no "skewing" involved; the questions are quite suitably bland, unlike some of the polls on this site. >_>
In case anyone is still confused:
1. Your computer, your account info, your responsibility. It's your fault if you let your account info get stolen.
2. If you're the real account owner, with all the info originally provided to S-E, then, yes, S-E missed up by not coming up with a way to get your account back after you've lost it.
The customer survey is the best way to let S-E know that #2 is a big concern to the player base. S-E plans on reading the survey, take advantage of it. (I did.)
Point #1 is NOT S-E's problem--it's the players responsibility.
The petition mentioned in OP is redundant at best, and most likely worthless.

You make too much sense...too bad the community as a whole don't understand that SE isn't at fault if you get hacked.

I know people who played for 5 years and never been hacked...people act like its SE's fault they got hacked =\

[Phanex]

^^ Everyone up here is right.

Yes, everyone should make their computer completely safe.

Yes, we shouldn’t blame SE if the person gave out their info and didn’t have their pc completely safe.

But wait. Lets look at this from another stand point for a second. If you had a car stolen, and you got to the police, let’s pretend what they might ask.

Disclaimer (this is not what will happen, these are not the question the police will ask you if your car has been stolen.)

Sir, did you lock your car?
Yes.
Sir, does anyone have a copy of your keys?
Yes, my room mate in case I lock them in there.
Sir, did you have your windows up?
Yes, but cracked a little.
Sir, did you have a club (the thing that goes to the stirring wheel) attached to your car?
Yes.
Sir, do you have the serial number that’s located on the engine block of your car?
Um..no..

Sorry sir, we can’t help you shouldn’t have your windows cracked open a bit, and you shouldn’t have given your friend a copy of your keys. He could have done this to you and it’s your own fault that your car has been stolen. Unless you can give us the serial number on the engine block we can’t help you.

I know it’s not accurate at all, lol, my poor attempt of making an analogy. But my point is, no matter how safe you make your car, someone out there is always finding new ways of breaking into your car. PCs are the same way. Also, they know people make mistakes, or are more carefree in their security of their PC’s, but they still refuse to help.

Saying it’s the victim’s fault that it got hacked is RIGHT. But, SE knows it happens, knows how it can happen, and still refusing to help out is WRONG. I’m not blaming them for the hack, I’m blaming them for not doing anything to help restore ownership back to the rightful person. They can still add a few features to help overcome some of the playing community’s stupidity. Can’t fix the Player, so help fix the system.

My room mate’s was stolen between 12-2-07 9pm eastern and 12-3-07 3pm eastern. He immediately called them and told them what happened, and they refuse to help. IF the credit card was changed within less than 24hrs, wouldn’t that raise the “Holy Hackers Batman” signal?

Sorry again for the long posts, meh I need to learn short hand.

[Kailea]

I just wish there was a way to call, and change your CDkey info... yeah I know that sounds sillly, but I have been playing since PC release, and at one point last year I took a 6 month break. I did not think I was coming back, so I threw away all of my stuff, but when I came back, I was lucky to recover my account with out the CD keys...... I have a new set of keys from the 07 collection though.

[eticket109]

You make too much sense...too bad the community as a whole don't understand that SE isn't at fault if you get hacked.
I know people who played for 5 years and never been hacked...people act like its SE's fault they got hacked =\

It isn't SE's fault people lose their accounts. It is SE's fault that they can't get them back.

[Khidir]

Did anyone actually read the survey? There's no "skewing" involved; the questions are quite suitably bland, unlike some of the polls on this site. >_>

In case anyone is still confused:
1. Your computer, your account info, your responsibility. It's your fault if you let your account info get stolen.
2. If you're the real account owner, with all the info originally provided to S-E, then, yes, S-E missed up by not coming up with a way to get your account back after you've lost it.

The customer survey is the best way to let S-E know that #2 is a big concern to the player base. S-E plans on reading the survey, take advantage of it. (I did.)

Point #1 is NOT S-E's problem--it's the players responsibility.

The petition mentioned in OP is redundant at best, and most likely worthless.

According to the ToS, the chars issued by SE is their property, we pay for the service of using them; a priviledge at best, I don't see why they should not be concerned with who has them if they do not endorse RMT and the selling/buying of player characters.

The Customer survey has done what? It's probrably the best way of keeping responses to a mininum and implying generalization of "the problem is on the user end." Why make a survey for a company's prowess(in lack of a better word) when it's slanted twoard examining the user base(this is the skewing i'm talking about), especially the GM policy.

I've completed the survey under 600 characters doesn't even constitute a decent 3 paragraph essay and definitely not a 5 paragraph one concerning GM policy. Another is 1000characters, not words; that still doesn't constitute a strong criticism for or against.I'm sure anyone can say that there are a lot of kinks in our system that cannot be covered by just 2 or so paragraphs.

If it's the player's responsibility in full then we should own the chars as a result; however, we do not own them so SE should be involved. Pushing for involvement may result in change, albeit low but possible. It generates more attention than doing nothing. #2 is the point of the poll, so SE messed then what? It stays messed up?

You always have a chance to be hacked regardless of what you use, there is no zero possibility in using so and so software. If it's made by a flawed creature the product itself is bound to have its own flaws; some are better than others sure, but everything can be broken by a certain means.

Is Firefox supposed to be some sort of shield all for us? It's more of a helmet for not-so-computer-savvy; it protects you against one thing, but can leave you open to another.

by the way, the above not including the quote is not allowed under the 600 characters nor the 1000 characters by the survey along with the arguments for and against the petition because it exceeds it; how come there isn't more space for addressing issues by a company or even praising them?

[IfritnoItazura]

600 characters doesn't even constitute a decent 3 paragraph essay and definitely not a 5 paragraph one concerning GM policy.

Why do you need more than 600 character to say:

If unauthorized person changed current billing address, credit card, and other changeable info after obtaining the account ID and password, there is no procedure for the rightful account holder to recover his account.

This is a blatant weakness in POL's security, and a source distress to many players, even those who haven't been victimized, yet.

And, that's being wordy.

[Khidir]

You need more than 600 characters to address

-GMs performance and difference in treatment between JP and NA, as well as basic understanding of game mechanics

-SE's Policy twoards accounts

-Certain changes to jobs

-The AH system issues

it could easily go on as one thing leads to another, when I said that I was referring to a wider scale concerning the 600character limit

[Otaku7]

How long would you say this process takes? 1-2 Weeks after the notarization is looked at, but how long does it take for them to pick it up and start on it after they receive it?