[Kadenmire]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

I kind of enjoy the fact that I can't accidentally Alt-Tab/Ctrl-Esc/Window Key myself out of FFXI at any given time... It has sort of an ergonomic benefit to it in that I won't have to wait for the game to reacquire resources while some nasty little monster is chewing on my soon-to-be corpse...

However, a Menu option that swaps me out without logging me out (maybe give me the little ... AFK bubble) would be very handy.

There used to be the option to log out to the pol viewer without compleatly leaveing the game. I used to do this and then hit the windows key to bring up my desktop when I needed to check something. Then all you had to do was click on the FFXI icon in your toolbar to go back to the game. Sadly about 4 updates ago they took that option out. Now I use my laptop to check things outside of the game.

[Vyuru]

(because I dont have the time to write all of it down, or the money to buy ink to print out everything I need).

The joys of the laser printer.

I'm not a big fan of the windower, sure there may be something you want to do on a spur of the moment, but how many people actually suddenly decide to go do some difficult mission or something right when there are just the right people to do it with?

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Snowball

And with that said..... what if you were onto doing a long quest or mission?
I've seen some of the missions written out on alla, and they are really quite long!
Take this as an example: Lightbringer for Sandy. Now THERE'S a rather long mission if ever I saw one! You could be using up your FFXl time, in the time it takes to write all THAT lot out! I CERTAINLY wouldn't use pen/pencil and paper on that! I think it's a bit of a waste, especially if you have to throw it away once you have completed the mission!

You do realize you are still wasting time regardless by READING the walkthrough anyway. Besides with Pen and paper all you need is the key parts which basically breaks down to:

M8-1 CS complete -> Talk to Halver -> Wait 1 Day (JST longwinded talk) -> Talk to King -> Head to Knight's Quarters -> Talk to Rahal -> Goto Temple of Uggalepih -> Farm Tonbery Stabbers [Prelate Key] (Should point out the guy typed 1 freaking paragraph for something 5 words can cover) -> J-11 Entrance of Temple -> H-10 Kill Temple Guardian (Long winded speach about Manipulator) -> Staircase directly above you (WTF? Horrible descriptive words) -> Use Prelate Key (Shouldn't have to say this is a no-brainer) -> Clear room of mobs -> Get keyitems in Doors 1, 2, 4 -> Touch Door 3 for NM fight -> Touch Door 3 for CS -> Back to King

Cut freaking long and mindless info I didn't need down to something short. Thing is weather I print, write, or window it I'm still spending most of my time reading the freaking crap. Having to log out and in takes the least of my time.

Yeah, and to add a good Laser Printer should only cost you about $0.0001 a page. They are very cheap and a great deal for the casual B/W crap. If you are printing graphics then it's a different story on price. Really being able to switch windows on some things is useful, but in a game have the data down on a paper is just so significantly more powerful and so many more benefits it's not funny.

First off with paper is you have less programs you can have not runnings already off the bat that's a perfomance improvement for the game. Second when you switchout window often the other window can be taking up enough space that you don't get a clear view of what's happening in the game. So it leaves pontential for you to be useless there still, however with paper you open up more space to use allowing you hear and see what's going more clearly and re-act faster. Similar ability only useful with a two monitor setup, which then agaiin windowing function isn't exactly needed as well.

Just benefits of being able to take on some of the tasking ability to yourself instead of relying it all on the computer.

[bungiefan]

Originally Posted by Antivomit

because I dont have the time to write all of it down, or the money to buy ink to print out everything I need)

So be less verbose. You don't have to write down every little thing. Key words should be enough to remember or figure out what you need. It's not like you need every single word of a walkthrough to solve a simple puzzle... Develop your own shorthand, or just write down the most important details.

[bungiefan]

Originally Posted by Snowball

So those who want a windower, what's wrong with saving up your money, and buying something like a laptop, or PDA like I did instead?[/color][/size]

1) Someone playing on PS2 or Xbox 360 who also owns a computer gets the benefit as people with one PC and Windower, without paying the cost of two computers.

2) You shouldn't have to buy a second computer or similar expensive device for the sole purpose of browsing web sites that your main computer already can do.

3) If web browsing slows down your computer to not be able to run a game, it shouldn't be able to run FFXI in the first place. Computers are made to multitask nowadays. Windows 95 and Mac OS 7 made such abilities the expectation.

What's wrong with it is that you're telling them to get a device that they will ONLY use for that purpose, which their current equipment is perfectly capable of doing, but isn't allowed to by the one program you are running on it. It's absurd to constantly restrict a multitasking device to only perform a single task all the time, when other tasks allow you to run as many as you have resources for. Any PC capable of running FFXI has plenty of resources to spare, as the PS2 version runs with much more limited resources. It's kind of a waste to have a powerful machine and only be able to put 5% of its capabilities to use at once.

[samarium]

This is all well and good, but still does not help you if you need information in a pinch. You can only predict so much about whatever you're heading into, and the ability to get this information and instantly return to the exact point where you left off can't be beaten by even the best laser printer.

You can't beat the convenience of having the Windower, no matter how much shorthand you learn, and a windowed mode really should already be in the game.

The root of the issue here is that Windower > not Windower. It only adds convenience to your experience without taking anything away. The fact that it breaks the ToS only proves this point -- people are willing to risk suspensions and outright bans to have a windowed mode on this game, which SE's specifically restricted based on poor logic.

I'm not a big fan of the windower, sure there may be something you want to do on a spur of the moment, but how many people actually suddenly decide to go do some difficult mission or something right when there are just the right people to do it with?

Suppose a friend of yours sends you a tell asking for help with something. Before you say yes or no you'd like to check up on this task and see what's involved, and "hold on, let me log the whole way out and read up on it" sounds kind of like a pain in the behind to me. I just can't think of a situation where shutting down the game beats alt-tab.

-sam

[Feyd]

I'm also curious as to just how many of the current userbase (500k) still play on PS2 or have the X360 version, considering its almost impossible to get a FFXI HDD nowadays.

Is there the possibility that the majority of FFXI players are PC players? Anyone have any proof?. It'd be nice if we could slap SE with some actual figures about how many people use the PC version, and then how many people want to actually use their computer like every other MMORPG allows them to.

[Mog]

Originally Posted by bungiefan

So be less verbose. You don't have to write down every little thing. Key words should be enough to remember or figure out what you need. It's not like you need every single word of a walkthrough to solve a simple puzzle... Develop your own shorthand, or just write down the most important details.

Tis the words every college student follows. (including myself) You get damn good at this when you go to a university.

[Hazina]

Shorthand is cool, I use it all the time, but as a part time web student I spend a lot of time on my computer doing all sorts of things, and it's frustrating to me to be able to multi task in most applications except for my gaming experience ><

I can run photoshop, mutliple browsers, notepad, an ftp program all at once, but as it's been said, I'm stuck putting on the radio or watch tv while waiting for a party to get together or on a boat ect.. How inconvenient and annoying, I'm used to having everything on my computer a click away and no amount of preparation and paper waste will fix that.

Think of the trees ^.^

[FranckKnight]

Windower is cheating in the sense that SE didn't want us to be able to use the third party tools, as explained.

But gamewise, Windower itself isn't a cheat tool. It only does what it says, letting you play the game through a window isntead of full screen. There can be multiple use to this, like a quick screenshot, or those with only one computer being able to browse something while LFP, or a quick info check.

Now one of the points is, XBOX and PS2 don't need a windower because they can access a PC outside of the game. For some people, Windower is the tool that lets them do the same, basically be able to check on the data online while playing. PS2 and Xbox can do this by having the computer + console. PC would need two computers for this.

What becomes cheating is being able to use Windower for things that weren't put in the game for various reasons, usually for balance. I'll argue that there are different levels of cheat, but anything that gives you in-game data that you shouldn't be getting is cheating.

For example, TParty letting you check on your party's TP, even those in Alliance. Its minor, but it does make the game easier to small degree.

Speed hacking is a big no-no of course. But what about Recast timers, or Utsusemi shadow counters? It takes away the work of having to do it yourself.

Botting is equally as bad. Especially because alot of people would use it for unattended game time, like fishing while AFK. Basically, making money while they are busy with other things like sleeping.

Now, you could say all of those are not that bad. But if SE didn't put it in the game, that means they don't want you to be doing it. Those that say its really small things that aren't cheating, its still not fair to think that everyone should be using them to be on equal footing.

So those that 'cheat' like this are expecting everyone to use TParty? Its because we want to play the game as it was made to be played, and since because we don't want to use it that it becomes our problem others perform better?

That's my take on it. So yes, Windower alone isn't cheating, but its basically the door that allows everyone to use these cheats and features. They will crack down on the 'door' before trying to crack down the individual cheats, that's only normal.

[bungiefan]

Originally Posted by Feyd

I'm also curious as to just how many of the current userbase (500k) still play on PS2 or have the X360 version, considering its almost impossible to get a FFXI HDD nowadays.
Is there the possibility that the majority of FFXI players are PC players? Anyone have any proof?. It'd be nice if we could slap SE with some actual figures about how many people use the PC version, and then how many people want to actually use their computer like every other MMORPG allows them to.

I mainly play on PS2, except that my NA HDD died about a month ago, and I'm not yet willing to reformat my JP one and give up access to changing my account information to go through patches. I have the PC version as a backup, but I find gaming on a computer to be more unstable, and FFXI on it has completely frozen the computer or bluescreened into a reset at least 4 times in the past month for no apparent reason. I'm looking for a source for a new HDD, but no place in Alaska seems to have any left in stock.

As for the stats I've heard, most of the European player base is on PC< since there was no PS2 version for them, and the Xbox 360 is so new. More Americans play on PC because it was released first and the PS2 version was only made for about 7 months. Meanwhile, supposedly about half the Japanese player base (probably counting importer accounts since they can't easily tell them apart from real Japanese players) play on PS2, partly due to that being the first version, and partly due to computer gaming being not as popular in that country.

[Futan]

The thing is, Franck, if someone can program a bot, then they could easily make it so that the bot starts on a key press or something. It doesn't stop botters at all, it just screws over the legit player.