[Macht]

Originally Posted by ValisOfValefor

Means their trying to open up other subjobs and weapon combination for warrior (other than everone going /nin with 2 axes)
Meaning their most likely either doing something to /nin, or their going to make a way to make other subjobs more appealing.

Given that they also comment that WARs are suppose to be the master of weapons. I'm thinking something that allows them to wield other weapons even if they couldn't before if they have that particular job as a sub.

So a WAR might end up being able to wield Katana's and G. Katana's. Or wield other weapons that were certain job main only if WAR has that job as sub. Maybe also an adjustment on were their weapon's skill max is taking the sub job into account.

So WAR/RNG might get a higher cap in skill for Archery, and can use E-Bow and other RNG only weapons. WAR/COR might get a higher cap in Marksmanship and get to use the CORs Hexaguns. Something like sounds like the most common and obvious thing considering most games similar view of WAR and the previous FFs were a WAR could wield any weapon.


MNKs change sounds like they are making them more like a MUD style MNK I played once before. Basically they are giving the monks more stances. An example of what I mean this particular MUD did this:

Crane Stance: Higher Evasion, Better Counterattack, Low Defense, Moderate Damage, Normal Attack Speed
Dragon Stance: Higher Damage, Moderate Defense, Low Evasion, Low Counterattack, Normal Attack Speed
Mantis Stance: Higher Attack Speed, Moderate Damage, Low Defense, Moderate Counter, Low Evasion
Tiger Stance: Normal Damage, Moderate Attack Speed, Low Defense, Slightly Higher Counter, Low Evasion

And so on, not a great example. Enough to give an idea of what I'm thinking. Basically if the MNK finds himself drawing hate and ending up the Tank he can change his stance. Say it's a MNK type mob or fast hitting one MNK could change to Crane stance and tank by avoiding and countering frequent attacks. If it's a hard hitter and slow attack then could change to Dragon Stance and do a fight Fire with Fire logic. Or if he isn't a tank can change to Mantis and get a quazi Hundred Fist like damage going to start building up TP and whatever else.

[tazirai]

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

If they add seperate timers for offensive and healing blood pacts, that'd be so freaking sweet. SMN's could actually take a DD/support role if this happened.
Aside from that, it looks like they're nerfing NIN for subbing, trying to buff SAM for subbing(two new traits at 25 and 35 could do it...), and overall trying to get WAR's to sub something else. SAM tanking sounds...different <_<. It'd make the +Enmity AF pieces actually worth something, but I dunno how they expect to have it on par with PLD or NIN unless its Defensive Stance is uber somehow(like increased chance to Parry or something like that).
Certain other changes have me nervous(RNG, although thankfully I'm only taking it to 40 for SAM subbing and BCNM40 fights), but we'll just have to see how it plays out. Although this update has me wondering if I should bother taking my 22 NIN any further if they plan on destroying NIN sub >_>. Also, the DRG news seem lackluster. Doesn't sound anywhere as interesting as the THF one.

We ca already do support DD, this just makes it easier for us, and SMN can stop being Cure tank onry, But knowing People, nothing will change.

■SMN
【Job's Strength】
Job that uses mp to summon avators and fight with it

Changes made based on summoning skill
We will divide Blood pacts into two category: Damage Blood Pact and Healing/Buff Blood Pact. Blood Pact will affect summoning skill ups.

I can't wait for this But they really need to do something abotu perpetuation .. They should have SUmmoning skill affect perpetuation in some way.
Say -1 Perpetuation/60-70 Summoning skill at 296 capped that would help alot. And make those Summoning skill gear that much more needed.

[Raydeus]

It seems to me like SE wants to make the game less Refresh dependant, while giving RDM and BRDs better debuffing/enhancing options so they are still wanted in a party.

I'm just curious about how it'll work out in the end, but Auto Refresh II or Conserve MP for SMN and PLD (or even Auto refresh for BLM? o.O ) doesn't seem too farfetched imo.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Nah, they might have a slightly better effect with skill and gear, but after lvl 50+ the effect (or lack of it) is very noticible, even with all the +stat gear you can use. Adding more types of bebuffs might be part of what they have in mind, but who knows.

My experience has been that enfeebles worked just as well at lvl10 as it does at 69.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

You kinda answered it yourself, Tier II Enfs would have a greater effect and last longer which is really needed after lvl 50, specially if our job is that of debuff/support.

Everything I've seen has put that Tier II enfeebles at best as a minor improvement. Enfeebles do not work like Elemental spells, there is no cap or maximum they can do, they grow with you. If Thunder didn't have a damage cap around 130 or so then there would be no need for Thunder 2-4 but it does cap, the enfeebles do not.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

With DD gear RDM has good dmg output for a mage, /DRK is really nice for that. But RDM will never have the damage capabilities a PLD or a BLU has.

I'm not asking to become a Red PLD or a WAR or a DD job at all, just that it would be nice if it didn't look like I would better serve a mission party doing nothing rather then using a weapon. RDM was supposed to be versatile, as in if there wasn't a better job around they could fill that spot.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

Everything I've seen has put that Tier II enfeebles at best as a minor improvement. Enfeebles do not work like Elemental spells, there is no cap or maximum they can do, they grow with you. If Thunder didn't have a damage cap around 130 or so then there would be no need for Thunder 2-4 but it does cap, the enfeebles do not.

You are right, Tier II debuffs as they are right now suck (specially Phalanx II).


Enfs are capped though, players have tested the max Slow effect and stuff like that, it's not that spells wont cap, is just that you'll never see the max effect they can have simply because you'll never have enough +skill +stat (compared to the mob's) to reach it unless you are fighting low lvl mobs or something like that.

Say Thunder damage caps at 130*, well if it was an Enf. then you as a RDM would always be doing 80-90* and say 200* (from something like a 270 cap*) with Thunder II. You wont reach the cap in both cases, but the effect will always be better using a Tier II spell.

(* The values aren't real, and were just used to illustrate the example)

Now, you might see Tier I spells do the same they have since you were lvl 10, and that's exactly the problem.

Tier II spells should have a greater impact, for instance if Paralyze II kicked in as often as the Paralyze from Ice Spikes does and the effect lasted as much it would be great. If Slow II was closer to Carnage Elegy it would be awesome... but they aren't, and for the MP cost they are pretty useless too given the tiny difference in effect compared to Tier I spells.

So SE needs to improve that if they wanna enhance our role as enf/support.

[Herrisa]

Originally Posted by Macht

MNKs change sounds like they are making them more like a MUD style MNK I played once before. Basically they are giving the monks more stances. An example of what I mean this particular MUD did this:

Crane Stance: Higher Evasion, Better Counterattack, Low Defense, Moderate Damage, Normal Attack Speed

Dragon Stance: Higher Damage, Moderate Defense, Low Evasion, Low Counterattack, Normal Attack Speed

Mantis Stance: Higher Attack Speed, Moderate Damage, Low Defense, Moderate Counter, Low Evasion

Tiger Stance: Normal Damage, Moderate Attack Speed, Low Defense, Slightly Higher Counter, Low Evasion

And so on, not a great example. Enough to give an idea of what I'm thinking. Basically if the MNK finds himself drawing hate and ending up the Tank he can change his stance. Say it's a MNK type mob or fast hitting one MNK could change to Crane stance and tank by avoiding and countering frequent attacks. If it's a hard hitter and slow attack then could change to Dragon Stance and do a fight Fire with Fire logic. Or if he isn't a tank can change to Mantis and get a quazi Hundred Fist like damage going to start building up TP and whatever else.

Now this would be cool. Plus it would add some interest in the monk job besides hitting auto-attack, running to the kitchen to get a drink, and getting back in time to use a weaponskill (oh-hoho do I see some guilty expressions out there?). Plus it just seems more.. well.. monkish.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Herrisa

Now this would be cool. Plus it would add some interest in the monk job besides hitting auto-attack, running to the kitchen to get a drink, and getting back in time to use a weaponskill (oh-hoho do I see some guilty expressions out there?). Plus it just seems more.. well.. monkish.

One thing I can guarentee you, that MUDs Monks were very hard to play. If you were good at it though then they were very godly on that MUD, however if you couldn't choose your stances right or wrong timing on them then you could be a very pathetic Monk.

On that MUD the godly Monks could kill Medusa solo (1 of the hardest mobs in the MUD, con about IT+ to lv. 75 in FFXI), but the pathetic ones could barely solo a master thief (one of the mid level mobs be about one conning as EP to a lv. 70 in FFXI). There was a lot more controllers though too.

[Kaickul]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Seriously though, I wonder what they are planning, but I can already hear the "<insert job> are too overpowered, nerf them" screams, followed by the "we <insert job> are too weak and that makes me feel inferior, make everyone as weak as me!".

Based on the dicussion already going on... this is how the arguement will always be.

Something I think needs to be considered here is that SE isnt trying to screw up jobs as much as they might be trying to alter perceptions. Example: Trying to get BSTs into a PT structure seems (dont flame) something worthwhile considering BSTs were never meant to be a solo job.

[Omniblast]

■SMN
【Job's Strength】
Job that uses mp to summon avators and fight with it

Changes made based on summoning skill
We will divide Blood pacts into two category: Damage Blood Pact and Healing/Buff Blood Pact. Blood Pact will affect summoning skill ups.

Yes! Something for us finally. Now if only we can somehow solve the perpetuation problem. As much as I like to summon and sit, I'd much rather be helping my party out by keeping my avatar out. I mean, who doesn't like to see the sight of a Purplish glowing wolf running behind me ready to bite something.

Now we can finally do stupid buffs to our pets BEFORE doing a damage blood pact, and it would increase the blood pact's effectivness. Ecliptic Howl, then Ecliptic Bite (full moon = more accuracy)
I'm sick of seeing 200 damage by fenrir, when I know he can do more.

[Aeni]

Originally Posted by Macht

One thing I can guarentee you, that MUDs Monks were very hard to play. If you were good at it though then they were very godly on that MUD, however if you couldn't choose your stances right or wrong timing on them then you could be a very pathetic Monk.

On that MUD the godly Monks could kill Medusa solo (1 of the hardest mobs in the MUD, con about IT+ to lv. 75 in FFXI), but the pathetic ones could barely solo a master thief (one of the mid level mobs be about one conning as EP to a lv. 70 in FFXI). There was a lot more controllers though too.

Your suggestions sounds like WAR in WOW. Three stances (Battle-default, Shield-tank and Berserk-attack) In each of the stances, you get a different benefit (Dual-wield in one, shield mastery in another, etc.) This gives an added flexibility to a job class depending on a situation.

And yes, it's not easy to master. It takes a certain individual that is willing to be anal in his/her process with each of the stances. You're either perfect or just a nub.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Aeni

Your suggestions sounds like WAR in WOW. Three stances (Battle-default, Shield-tank and Berserk-attack) In each of the stances, you get a different benefit (Dual-wield in one, shield mastery in another, etc.) This gives an added flexibility to a job class depending on a situation.

And yes, it's not easy to master. It takes a certain individual that is willing to be anal in his/her process with each of the stances. You're either perfect or just a nub.

I think in this situation they mean more along the lines of Job Abilities the Monks can turn on in the event a certain situation arises. Maybe the crab uses a Def Up ability, and the Monk can use an Atk Up ability that will also raise Enmity and lower Defense as a balance effect. If the Monk gets hate he can switch to an Atk Down, Enmity Down, and Eva Up stance until the crab is turned back to the tank, providing the Monk has access to it.

[Aeni]

Originally Posted by DakAttack

I think in this situation they mean more along the lines of Job Abilities the Monks can turn on in the event a certain situation arises. Maybe the crab uses a Def Up ability, and the Monk can use an Atk Up ability that will also raise Enmity and lower Defense as a balance effect. If the Monk gets hate he can switch to an Atk Down, Enmity Down, and Eva Up stance until the crab is turned back to the tank, providing the Monk has access to it.

You've got to understand, speccing is similar to subjobs For example, if you go speccing fully into one tree, you can't get abilities or enhancements from another tree without enough points.

That's why I point out the similarities. In this case, yes, the subjob availability may be a factor (about time) since right now, there's no incentive for jobs unless they only sub one or two jobs with their main (Only job right now that can be defined better by their subjobs and options available are RDMs and maybe to a certain extent DRGs)

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Enfs are capped though, players have tested the max Slow effect and stuff like that, it's not that spells wont cap, is just that you'll never see the max effect they can have simply because you'll never have enough +skill +stat

You're right saying they aren't capped is not right, but enfeebles cap differently then elemental spells. The elementals have a hard limit and you will hit it before you get the next tier spell. You must have the next tier spell to increase your damage output. Enfeebles work on a percentage that factors in your skill and MND or INT. Increase them and you have a higher chance of working effectivly. That Paralyze works the same in the dunes as it did as it does in VoS or what not is because it grew with you. Stone will never do more then 30, Slow will slow down a mob by a percentage everywhere if you keep your skill up. A second Tier wasn't needed to keep up.

So SE needs to improve that if they wanna enhance our role as enf/support.

But they said they didnt want to empasize Enfeebling any more, they wanted to empasize RDM flexability. Simply giving more Enfeebling would not change anyones perception of RDM flexibility. It would be like them giving BLM a huge MP spell to try and make them fit into a roving party.

[Clever Ninja]

After looking at Counterstance, I can actually see Macht's idea actually coming through. Different stances that do different things.

[tazirai]

Originally Posted by Omniblast

Yes! Something for us finally. Now if only we can somehow solve the perpetuation problem. As much as I like to summon and sit, I'd much rather be helping my party out by keeping my avatar out. I mean, who doesn't like to see the sight of a Purplish glowing wolf running behind me ready to bite something.
Now we can finally do stupid buffs to our pets BEFORE doing a damage blood pact, and it would increase the blood pact's effectivness. Ecliptic Howl, then Ecliptic Bite (full moon = more accuracy)
I'm sick of seeing 200 damage by fenrir, when I know he can do more.

Dunno If you saw what I said about perpetuation or not, But I think it should be tied to the Summoning SKill, XX points = -1 Cost to per.. would work very well.

OR have a JA that lasts 1-3 min, cool down of 3 min to have 0 perpetuation cost.
That way you can use your Avatar free for a2-3 BP's. Kinda like a Mini Astral Flow.