Cheating and Stuff

[avhmia]

Personally, I don't even use a Windower just because I like things simple and clean. There are things I'd like SE to add (like allow <calls> in /echo), but I just send them suggestions rather than adding a 3rd-party program.

I feel the same way. I would love to be able to window or minimize FFXI, but I won't break the ToS to do so. I realize that folks tend to aggro to that kind of sentiment, but that's just the way it is. Every time I log on I agree to a set of rules, and when I give my word it means something to me not to break it.

Now, while I do consider it a violation of the ToS, I choose to overlook it when it comes to friends and such. I value their friendship, and that's more important to me than a matter of moral clarity. I realize that not everyone puts the same value on these things than I do (and certain people put a lot more! ^^), so I just ignore it.

The problem with windower, though, is that it is fed by a very progressive mentality. It started with people being frustrated that SE gave them no way to window, so they made a way. Then you couldn't see party TP and alliance MP, so they made a way. Then you couldn't tell distance from target, so they made a way. Then they didn't like the macro length restrictions, so they made a new macroing system. Creeping, it goes further and further towards the gray areas. Already windower macros have been used to bot summoning/enhancing/healing skill ups.

That's what comes of accepting gray areas. On the whole, I think cheating of all kinds (botting/speedhacking/the wait time hack/the PM2-5 exploit) has become slowly less and less of an unacceptable behavior. Unless something happens to shift the mindset of the entire playing population in a better direction, I really fear that it will just get worse and worse until eventually it kills the game completely.

[Murphie]

The problem with windower, though, is that it is fed by a very progressive mentality. It started with people being frustrated that SE gave them no way to window, so they made a way. Then you couldn't see party TP and alliance MP, so they made a way. Then you couldn't tell distance from target, so they made a way. Then they didn't like the macro length restrictions, so they made a new macroing system. Creeping, it goes further and further towards the gray areas. Already windower macros have been used to bot summoning/enhancing/healing skill ups.

I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

Right now there is a guy developing (or rather who has developed) a very basic copy of Windower. But there are people bulling him about the fact that "no one" wants something so simple. Except that they do. A program that just allowed me to alt-tab with no other functionality (even if it's functionality that I can easily disable) would be fantastic. Even more fantastic would be SE wising up and just implementing it for themselves.

[Neomage]

My god >.< I just saw a tape of hackers insta-claiming things at chainspell casting speeds(on BLM) when a monster JUST spawns, even before the "you must wait longer" wears off...

They where claiming using Flare, Burst and Freeze.

And it really was the damn spell, not a .dat swap.

EDIT: And no, I'm not going to link the video. Not only does it show how they did it, but it's posted on a FFXI hacking fourm, and I don't want to give out the URL.

[avhmia]

I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

I know, I hate to use it too because it just sounds like a line from a 50 anti-pot movie... But if you look at how windower has developed over time, it's really... interesting.

From a benign and simple thing, it has developed a whole range of functions that really change the way you can play the game. While that's bad in itself, it has pushed back the line on what people accept as cheats or not, and it keeps getting pushed back further and further. It pains me to see people complain after an update because this or that plug-in has stopped working. If you look at some of the tools that are promoted on the windower site, you see that things are moving further and further away from the standard FFXI client.

[sevenpointflaw]

Interseting though, SE has changed in response to Windower and other 3rd party macros. I seem to remember that now, "attended macroing" is permitted. While not officially via programs like Windower, you are allowed to use macros generated by yoursystem. By that I'm specificly refering to things like the G15 keyboard, in which macros can be created at the "system level" even if its 3rd party.

Annoying, considering I don't have $80 to spend on a keyboard that just happens to be manufactured by the business partner of SE...

As for the slippery slope, that's why I draw the line where I do. Its not so slippery. I don't want to see your TP on my screen, because I can't see it whenever I want unless you tell me. I -can- see my bloodpact recast timer (and I'm not talking about /recast) on my screem whenever I want, so I don't care where it shows that.

Unlimited macro length... I really don't care about. Having a 60 line macro to me is no different than having 10 macros 6 lines each. In and of itself, the Windower macro system doesn't really add all that much functionality. It doesn't allow conditional macros (and obcious cheat since the macro starts "thinking" for yourself) or anything like that.

Something worth noting about the windower macro system that I've mentioned before in these forums, the PS2 macros are very smooth. They are quick and responsive, and rarely suffer from "slowness". The PC macros are slow, unresponsive, take a noticable ammount of time to become available after pressing ctrl or alt, and are often "eaten" by lag. 9/10 if you "fast tap" your macro on a PC, nothing will happen. Doing the same on a PS2 has no problem.

Windower Macros don't tend to have this problem. You can fast tap all you want, and your macros will go off as if you were using a PS2.

[Aeni]

Interseting though, SE has changed in response to Windower and other 3rd party macros. I seem to remember that now, "attended macroing" is permitted. While not officially via programs like Windower, you are allowed to use macros generated by yoursystem. By that I'm specificly refering to things like the G15 keyboard, in which macros can be created at the "system level" even if its 3rd party.

Annoying, considering I don't have $80 to spend on a keyboard that just happens to be manufactured by the business partner of SE...

Annoying, yes, but you have to realize that Logitech never made this Keyboard to "just work with FFXI." Plus, I do own this keyboard and I'll be the first to admit that it's macro system is not very good for FFXI at all (It's perfect for WOW, but that's for another discussion)

Unlimited macro length... I really don't care about. Having a 60 line macro to me is no different than having 10 macros 6 lines each. In and of itself, the Windower macro system doesn't really add all that much functionality. It doesn't allow conditional macros (and obcious cheat since the macro starts "thinking" for yourself) or anything like that.

Personally I feel this is cheating. Why? Because, with an unlimited macro length, you do realize that this opens up for botting - and botting of ANY KIND is illegal.

"Unattended" macroing is equivalent to an unlimited length macro, don't you think? If you're going to be present at your game, then why bother having an unlimited macro, since you can't do much anyway (And you can't use any other macros since it will disrupt the execution of the initial macro)

[sevenpointflaw]

Ah, I agree with you in the sense that an unlimited macro is likely made for the purpose of botting and botting only. I guess I should say that I don't have a personal problem with breaching the 6-liine limitation. For example, using a univiersal macro for Summoner buffs. If there lets say, 12 summons each with 1 buff, that is two macros. I don't care if those macros are made into one.

[Ziero]

Dat Swapping...I have to take Sevenpointflaw's stance on. How you want to make your character look on your screen is your business. However when it actually gives you an advantage, it gets much more questionable. I'm against swapping chests with something else, so you don't get mimics.

The only gaurenteed way to not get a mimic is to use a proper key. Dat swapping chests just makes them easier to find. Whether they're changed to a giant green and yellow banner with a chest on it or giant, candy cane stripped magic pots with sound and all, all dat swapping chests does is make it easier to find them.

Which I do the same thing with maps so I don't really need dat swaps.

[DakAttack]

The only gaurenteed way to not get a mimic is to use a proper key. Dat swapping chests just makes them easier to find. Whether they're changed to a giant green and yellow banner with a chest on it or giant, candy cane stripped magic pots with sound and all, all dat swapping chests does is make it easier to find them.

Which I do the same thing with maps so I don't really need dat swaps.

So, this would mean that a Mimic's animations are in the same DAT as the usual Trasure Chest and Coffer's? I kind of guessed as much, I had an idea earlier, and I knew it sounded flawed.

[Feba]

for one, windower DOES NOT have a shadow counter. At best they have an utsu recast timer.

There are many things which windower users do which windower does not support, and in some cases, vice versa.


You may say they're slowly creeping into hacks, but anyone who actually uses their forums knows this isn't the case. They've kept a lot of things from being released because they're afraid of windower being used for botting, windower is in a very bad condition as is (after this next update, Archbells Windower might not ever function again) since the creators hate ffxi..


They know they have the power to make some very powerful hacks with windower, they know ffxi better than most anyone that didn't make it, and they don't want it to happen.

Unlimited macros are there to make eq swaps and things such as that possible, not to encourage botting. Even IBHalliWell's SMN macro is very debated on their forums.


Many windower users don't even agree with plugins, and deleted them. Personally I have no problem with them, but hardly use any (except EXPWatch) because I find them rather ugly.

[Murphie]

I hate ugly plugins too.

[sevenpointflaw]

amen

[Shopee]

I hate ugly plugins too.

Well aren't we Mr. Superficial.

[Murphie]

Well aren't we Mr. Superficial.

We are! [Nice to meet you.]

[Shopee]

Well, to make amends for my one-liner, I guess I'll have to post an opinion on this subject.


There seems to be a major divisive line: No 3rd party apps, or some.

Seeing as how those that disagree with 3rd party apps being used in any way have a pretty clear cut perspective, it's difficult to discussion that particular opinion.

However, when dealing with the issue to the point where you have crossed the line into making your own judgments about the applicability of the Terms of Service, there is a much larger area to swim and flop about in. Lots of lines are drawn based on different things.

Now, it seems fundamental to the opinion that some 3rd party apps (i.e. the windower) are ok that they do not necessitate an advantage over other players in the game, and this seems a reasonable enough opinion. That is, afterall, the most likely extrapolation of the spirit of the Terms of Service clause banning 3rd party application use.

An interesting issue has just recently arisen. The discussion of unlimited macroing capability, particularly as given by the G15 logitech keyboard (which I happen to be in possession of). Unlimited macroing is subject to abuse, however, it seems unreasonable that one would be committing a moral wrong by creating a seven line macro. Why? Well it just makes something you could do earlier slightly more convenient.

But then, how many macro lines is too many? 18 lines? This could be done by hitting three macros consecutively.

24?
30?
36?

Where exactly might one draw the line? It would have to be a somewhat arbitrary opinion, considering any user of the game has the ability to produce 1200 consecutive lines of script via normal in game macros. Sure, they'd have to be at the their computer to do all that, but what of someone who creates a 1200 line macro using a different means, presses the single button, but remains at the keyboard?

Is attendance the determining factor? It would seem so. But in the latter case the attendance is not related to the execution of the macro, thus essentially being the same as not attending (as far as macros go).

So why is it a meaningful gesture? Can we conclude, since attendance is not necessitated by unlimited macro capability, that using such a program is in fact wrong, and 'cheating' whether you remain at the game or not?

I'm still puzzling over this one. I think it's rather interesting.