Greivances with "The List"

[Amovorite]

Just a quick question.... for non Seraph folk. On your server.... is the RMT trying to sell you Byakko's Haidate for upwards of 40 million gil? Sky triggers from 10-15 million a pop?

[DakAttack]

Just a quick question.... for non Seraph folk. On your server.... is the RMT trying to sell you Byakko's Haidate for upwards of 40 million gil? Sky triggers from 10-15 million a pop?

SH is just under 5mil on Bahamut. Is it still 7mil+ on Seraph?

[Murphie]

This is pretty unreal. A guy makes a list to help his server combat the RMT, and everybody jumps on it like he's testing nuclear weapons. This has gone from greivances to opinionated arguements.

Arguing opinions just goes in circles.

Not exactly. A guy makes a list that implicates a lot of people as RMT or RMT friendly with little to no evidence to back up his claim, and expects people to take him at his word that the people they are grouped with are RMT and leave or he MPKs them.

The original problem most of us have (Lack of proof for "associated with RMT"), is still the under discussion. But methodology and justification are under discussion as well. Our concerns are pretty reasonable. Cole and his supporters are the ones being unreasonable by not even acknowledging that there is an issue with the system.

Just a quick question.... for non Seraph folk. On your server.... is the RMT trying to sell you Byakko's Haidate for upwards of 40 million gil? Sky triggers from 10-15 million a pop?

In some cases, yes. In others, for a lot more than that. That still doesn't mean that players have the right to take things into their own hands. Especially not in such a slipshod manner.

[fallenintoshadows]

Firstly, anyone here has the right to jump upon that thread and tear it to pieces with comments as much as you guys have to make it. Ok so we're even there. People stop making comments about which thread shouldn't exist. I can safely say both threads are allowed, don't dispute this.

Alright so Cole has the right intentions? /cheer him! Problem is he doesnt have the right methods. If he was working at SE and could investigate more thoroughly into the alleged RMT's I'm sure he'd be great. Problem is he's not a worker at SE and sure as hell shouldn't try to act like one.

Yeah points are being made over and over again, reason being, people are trying to make sure these points are heard! So the points are heard already? Ok then just ignore the repitition. Stop complaining about points already being made, you dont have to re-read the same point from a different person for kicks!

No this is not an argument, it is simply at most a heated discussion. So stop complaining that people are complaining about your thread. People have a right to make their opinion made!

The problem with the list is that no there isn't 100% evidence. Yes you are right, this doesn't make it false information nor does is make it true. Therefore, something you don't know for sure should be left the hell alone because you do not have the right to judge them for yourself. Just because you have partial evidence its true, or reason to believe it, do not act upon it unless you have 100% evidence and dont use childish methods of justice like MPK.

You can't get 100% evidence? Boo hoo. You have no right to act upon it then. However feel free to make a thread about it and whine that you do not have 100% evidence. 50/50 is not good enough to condemn.

My post sucks? Tough. I have every right to post it. I'm not making you read this.

Oh and btw:

Do we really want to support flamebait threads where the opinionated throw around their point of views like bags of sand?

I'm sorry which thread are we talking about? The one where people are flamed and accused of being gil sellers? Or this one where people are flamed for flaming people?

Hello Pot! You think I'm black?

[Mhurron]

SH is just under 5mil on Bahamut. Is it still 7mil+ on Seraph?

Meaning what? Each server is a closed system so comparing the price of individual items is irrelevant.

[Feba]

A minority of the actual players who feel the need to continuously voice their opinion spend their days complaining in the forums, while the players content with the current status of everything continue to play the game.

Minority? If you'd look, there's a pretty healthy opposition to what RD is trying to do.

[ValisOfValefor]

Do we really want to support flamebait threads where the opinionated throw around their point of views like bags of sand?

Well this is a public forum so we can voice our opinioniated opinions, we really arent flamming.

(IE:I've always understood flames to be direct insults at a person, and from what ive seen, if this was flamming the mods would have already been on top of editing the post with the saying "No flamming", and the only person ive seen that happen to so far twice is RD on his thread the list when someone said McCarthism).


Back on topic though. I believe myself, that if were to have a party with an increadibly good group of people, and we're doing really really good, and getting fast experience.

And if someone came up to me and said "There gilsellers there on the list, get out before we MPK you for association"

first off I'd say "What list"

second off id say "Bug off, i dont really care if there RMT, they're skilled players, alot better than most the idiots ive played with lately."

And frankly if you do MPK someone, and there in a party/farming/ect... and theres people behind the computer they're completly in terms with the ToS

Now for the person who MPK's us (if he can), would get banned for violating the ToS even though he was trying to put "divine" justice to the supposed gilsellers.

Now for me, and alot of other people, its the by association part that really tics us off (as has been stated alot of other times).

Now another person tried bringing up Byakko's Haidate, thats completly irrelevent. If you can't hunt your own, well tough, but you have just as much of a chance to get it as the RMT as long as their not cheating (IE you do have something called provoke for a reason)

[Murphie]

What I don't get, is that we were asked not to comment in the thread itself. Most of us here honored that request quietly. But this thread was created for the sole purpose of discussing problems that people have with the other thread, and no all of a sudden we've got people calling for the closing of this thread, telling us that we're all ridiculous and/or stupid, and starting other threads passive-aggressively asking for a place for threads such as this.

So which is it? Comment on the List on the List thread, or comment elsewhere (ie: here)?

[DakAttack]

Meaning what? Each server is a closed system so comparing the price of individual items is irrelevant.

It's not a closed system when price of gil is relative across all servers. On Seraph it can be pretty difficult to make money, even under ideal farming conditions, whereas on Bahamut I'm finding it very easy to farm materials and synth ingots for good money.

At the moment the difference in price for ten million gil on Seraph and Bahamut can be counted in dimes. If you'd like I can PM you a link to where I look up prices. Unfortunately I can only compare Bahamut and Seraph because those are the only two economies I'm familiar with. If each economy really was truely unique prices would vary drastically.

Minority? If you'd look, there's a pretty healthy opposition to what RD is trying to do.

Compared to what? Those who oppose The List compared to the amount of people who actually play the game are a minority. Even those who oppose The List compard to how many people frequent this site per day are still a minority. It's strange to see that so many people who oppose it migrated from Alla, where the thread originated, but they never opposed it back then.

What I don't get, is that we were asked not to comment in the thread itself. Most of us here honored that request quietly. But this thread was created for the sole purpose of discussing problems that people have with the other thread, and no all of a sudden we've got people calling for the closing of this thread, telling us that we're all ridiculous and/or stupid, and starting other threads passive-aggressively asking for a place for threads such as this.

So which is it? Comment on the List on the List thread, or comment elsewhere (ie: here)?

I wanted there to be a place where you could bitch and moan all to yourselves. Like you said, this thread was created for the sole purpose of discussing problems that people have with the other thread, not lobbing the same arugments at Cole repeatedly while failing to actually discuss them. Does it say anywhere that you, those that oppose the thread, are not allowed to discuss it among yourselves? Maybe open your closed minds a little bit and attempt to view the discussion from a different angle?

[Taskmage]

Don't post this stuff on the list thread. There's no written rule against it, but until such time as we determine otherwise, it has just as much right it exist as this one and I'm personally tired of seeing it get bogged down in this conversation. We politely made the request multiple times, I just decided to force the issue by making this thread after Feba made his post about replying where he wants when he wants. People on both sides of the arguement are posting here by the good graces of the site owners, and no one's right to express their opinion or be treated courteously by the other posters supercedes another's.

[Murphie]

I was opposed to The List from the moment it was posted on Alla. But it because immediately clear that posting in opposition of said list was pointless as RD isn't interested and/or capable of listening or even acknowledging the other side, and over there he and his supporters would just rate down and flame opposition until people gave up.

Thankfully the system here is a lot more civil, and we don't have idiots like Rimsume and Rhiana trolling every other post.

[Spinnthrift]

Page claimed in the name of RMT threads everywhere!

Damnitaru - I'd been camping this thread! /poke Aer

[Murphie]

Page claimed in the name of RMT threads everywhere!

Alas. Also, can we stop with this?

The claiming I mean.

[Hamlet]

This thread was placed in general discussion, so you're going to have to expect people to comment on it from different servers.

It's strange to see that so many people who oppose it migrated from Alla, where the thread originated, but they never opposed it back then.

Alla is pretty retarded.

I don't really have a problem with the first part of the list, if it was done with more accountability and less arrogance. If I was on Seraph, I would probably object more, however.

I still say the second part has to go because it's dependent on the person trusting you. For all they know, Cole, they just think you have some grudge against the accused gilseller. And if they're not using windower, there's no way to switch to the internet to check out the list while still in the same party.

If they've been waiting say 6 hours for a party, do you really expect them to drop and then then logout and read a list created by a stranger on the internet? It's just not going to happen.

Cole said that most of the people on the 2nd part will be moved to the 1st part, so really I think that 2nd part should just be done away with since it's usefullness is questionable at best.

I do think that the idea is good. RMT is a real problem, and apparently it's really bad on Seraph. SE is notorious for not doing anything when getting gilseller reports, so I think it's good that the players try to do SOMETHING about it.

Anyway, Cole, you're going to do what you want, but you could really cut down on alot of objections and really make the list more legitimate imo if you do a few small things.

[Spinnthrift]

Page claiming in threads where people are getting irate brings it back to reality that it's not all that serious.

Look at this thread - we've had RD doing his thang, everyone else doing their own as well, and really - we should chill some, have a beer and not be at each others throats, because truth be told - you, me, anyone else here isn't the enemy. So look for the humour and smile, because it's a break in the napalm (even the subtlely disguised stuff).