[Smasholays]

Originally Posted by Cliff

You won't be able to do -anything- you wouldn't normally be able to do. I'm not stupid. I'd have thought I had a decent enough track record so far that people would assume that rather than the opposite.

What does that mean? This isn't a "normal" thing by any standards. Can people trade? What can people can and cannot do? You guys posted screenshots and listed nothing of the sort, you kind of have to expect people to think the worst.

Don't get me wrong, I trust the windower team, but I have to question when is something too much, and how easy can something like this be abused by someone else. If someone can figure out a way to trade between servers, that could really mess up economies. Of course, no one has listed how this works, so all I can offer is speculations and worries on my part, but with the lack of information about it, that's all anyone can offer.

Edit: I see you wrote "Edit 2 I want to make it clear that you can't do anything with Moglink that you couldn't normally do. This includes trading. -Cliff" so that clears up any worries of mine.

[forster]

Originally Posted by Cliff

Heh.

So here's what happens.

I develop this technology that lets you do ANYTHING with FFXI. I think, hey, what should I write? How about something so you can visit other people's moghouses and hang out in private. That'd be a neat proof of concept. I think people would love it. Who else would do something like this.

Something even more benign than TParty, etc. So I go and write it up, play around with a few friends, post screenshots. Now, suddenly I'm a public enemy and am killing the game...

You won't be able to do -anything- you wouldn't normally be able to do. I'm not stupid. I'd have thought I had a decent enough track record so far that people would assume that rather than the opposite.

-Cliff

Im not sure that anyone has said that you are killing the game - I, indeed, however wrong it may be by the TOS, appreciate your work - i really think that FFXI should have had some form of basic 'windowed' mode from the beginning.

I also appreciate the fact that you are using 'dangerous' code that, if let out in the wild, could create a certain number of 'mods' that were not originally planned when you started your work.

You have to appreciate however that a lot of players feel that any modification that affects the client are going to be in uproar about you changing the game - even for the better.

You cant please all the people all the time.

Indeed I would plead that you continue your work, however controversial, to improve the gameplay environment for every player.

Drunk and soon to be banned - Azaru.

[eriiko]

Originally Posted by Darkhound

Dont the developers of the windower realized they are harming the game...

I doubt this is true. I would not play this game if I was not able to use the windower. I'm sure this is true with many other people as well.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by forster

Im not sure that anyone has said that you are killing the game - I, indeed, however wrong it may be by the TOS, appreciate your work - i really think that FFXI should have had some form of basic 'windowed' mode from the beginning.

I also appreciate the fact that you are using 'dangerous' code that, if let out in the wild, could create a certain number of 'mods' that were not originally planned when you started your work.

You have to appreciate however that a lot of players feel that any modification that affects the client are going to be in uproar about you changing the game - even for the better.

You cant please all the people all the time.

Indeed I would plead that you continue your work, however controversial, to improve the gameplay environment for every player.

Drunk and soon to be banned - Azaru.

My statement is simple if the Windower stayed just simply as that a WINDOWER, I would have no issue with Archbell. The simple fact is they are no longer doing a simple service to provide something that a PC user of the game may or may not of seen as a necessity. They decided to play with fire and get dangerous by starting to break out the code, this just reconfirms my statement that you put out that temptation someone will go for it.

All I can really say is in my view Archbell and their development team are just kids playing with fire. They are going to cause a lot of trouble even if the fire was original intented to just build a camp fire, because they simply lack the responsbility for it. Yes responsibility, if they were responsible they would not be taking a program so far beyond it's original intent and knowingly go into what is just flat out providing a potential to break the game.

You can try to put the blame all you want on SE, but the fact is SE has been doing stuff (Though may not adequate enough) to try and get you to quit. Like children though you continue to push it. That is my sole and complete annoyance with these developments. Even richer is as I say all this you'll be rationalizing your actions to find what you see as a just reason to continue to do so.

[Omniblast]

The new feature of Moglink implementable in Windower 4+ is quite extra-ordinary. It seems like you can visit other mog houses from other people if they were in the mog house and only if you have "accept" on. Meaning you can technically decline access to your mog house from other people if you don't want them to visit you. And vice versa.

I read that you can also do emotes, and your friend would be able to see them. I wonder how synthing would work? Can my friends watch me blow up a Haubergeon and laugh at me across servers? Obviously you can't cast spells inside the mog house, so that's out of the question.

Most likely, what happens is that you arn't in your friend's mog house, but your own, so if you interact with the moogle, it's YOUR moogle your interacting with, thusly it would be YOUR storage and YOUR delivery box. Obviously you couldn't access your friend's sub jobs (that might be fun) or their jobs.

So Cliff created a new technology, that SE hasn't done yet. (or maybe they have but their waiting for a expansion to release it). If that was the case, then Cliff can suspend operations as SE would have their own. (most likely not T_T.)

I would love to ask Cliff some questions as whether or not this plugin.dll would access the net through the windower? Or does it just take all the information that SE already has provided in FFXI to generate a person and personal chat room? (read that whatever you chat with your friends cannot go to the server but buffer only or something like that)

Does Windower access the net or is it just a viewer that exists between ffxi & your monitor?

Inquisitve people want to know

[bikkebakke]

I really wish they would have just quit at making a windower. Why do they have to keep taking and taking till S-E finally takes some serious action against this?

[Reincarnation]

Oh well, I guess you just have to bare with it, y'know?

[Medalink]

I have a theroy of how this might "might" bepossible.

All this does is allow a 2nd login from a 2nd runing app to be displayed on screen. I will draw it out for you.

FFXI App1 Is useing the windower on there on PC.

FFXI App2 Is also useing this windower on there own PC thats different from the first.

What the windower does is take data from both and join them. It adds another layer to the screen and renders the 2nd char. They can talk to each other due to the windower Tranansfering the text back and forth.

All the data is transferd directly with either a 3rd party server or a direct connection with both PCs (Like on a LAN connection).

This is harmless and also very dangerous. If they have figured out how to send data to the server and get a response, they have in turn beat it. Say both Players leave the MH, go to Rolanberry and fight a mob. Technically they are not both there and both on the same server, but since the windower adds then on a 2nd layer and is able to talk to FFXI Server they could in turn be there.

One thing for sure is if they have a 3rd party server SE could not detect them as the data would be there and visable to everyone. Not only could both kill a mob but everyone around them would see them. Takeing two logins and merging them is not to hard to do. In a way is cool, they would interlink all servers via whos friends and what not. But this if not fully controlld by SE would crash the game, and SE could not do anything to stop it unless they changed the login system.

Thats what I think was done. I may be wrong, but It makes perfect sense from a devolpment side. This could also just be a simple .dat change from Rabao to look like your MH and both players are standing there. Either way this is not good.

Medalink

[Reincarnation]

Mm... That's a good analysis! ^-^ Well, on the plus side... At least they're learning to experiment with their surroundings, right? ^.^;

[Kailea]

windower, should have just stayed a windower, and nothing else, plain and simple

[Manatra]

If this weren't client side, and involved manipulating the server. I'm not sure who would be more stupid, the people for actually making it work, or SEs programmers.

Edit: Yes my grammar sucks.

[Medalink]

Originally Posted by Kailea-D

windower, should have just stayed a windower, and nothing else, plain and simple

lol, Nothing ever can stay clean or good. Evil and bad will come into play and destroys everything. This is how things work now a'days. People design things for good use, but it allways ends up being used for bad or deverted from the original pourpose.... Sad how this is allways true.

Originally Posted by Manatra

If this weren't client side, and involved manipulating the server. I'm not sure who would be more stupid, the people for actually making it work, or SEs programmers.

Edit: Yes my grammar sucks.

SE never intended to have hackers trying to twist the very data from the PC, They designed the data stored on our PC to be limited and they design and spend millions to have most of the critical data Server side. They could not do much more to prevent this.

The problem lies with the Hackers. Everything has a chance to be hacked. SE just has yet to counter windower on a large scale, they have not felt it a major threat just yet. You have to understand, they know who uses it, they arent prepared to terminate and lose ten's of thousands of paying custumors just yet. However if Windower does become a threat, you can bet they will.

I am in no way concernd for the Windower to destroy this game, but for the loss of so many members due to it if it does become a large threat. So look more to the morons who use it not to SE or the Windower itself.

Medalink

[pearlsea]

This would never had beed a problem if SE would of never made the fullscreen rule, its actualy a disadvantage to me as a pc user because if a ps2 user wanted to check a guide they could just go to there computer for a miniute but i cant since it would break the full screen.

[kuu]

Originally Posted by Medalink

I have a theroy of how this might "might" bepossible.

All this does is allow a 2nd login from a 2nd runing app to be displayed on screen. I will draw it out for you.

FFXI App1 Is useing the windower on there on PC.

FFXI App2 Is also useing this windower on there own PC thats different from the first.

What the windower does is take data from both and join them. It adds another layer to the screen and renders the 2nd char. They can talk to each other due to the windower Tranansfering the text back and forth.

All the data is transferd directly with either a 3rd party server or a direct connection with both PCs (Like on a LAN connection).

This is harmless and also very dangerous. If they have figured out how to send data to the server and get a response, they have in turn beat it. Say both Players leave the MH, go to Rolanberry and fight a mob. Technically they are not both there and both on the same server, but since the windower adds then on a 2nd layer and is able to talk to FFXI Server they could in turn be there.

One thing for sure is if they have a 3rd party server SE could not detect them as the data would be there and visable to everyone. Not only could both kill a mob but everyone around them would see them. Takeing two logins and merging them is not to hard to do. In a way is cool, they would interlink all servers via whos friends and what not. But this if not fully controlld by SE would crash the game, and SE could not do anything to stop it unless they changed the login system.

Thats what I think was done. I may be wrong, but It makes perfect sense from a devolpment side. This could also just be a simple .dat change from Rabao to look like your MH and both players are standing there. Either way this is not good.

Medalink

Lots of stuff...but clearly you need to read into the developers of windower said below

"This does not do anything you can't do before."

There is no interaction across servers even messaging. It's all done client side. SE won't even see the message(said by cliff himself)

A more acceptable theory on how Cliff and CO approached is probably related to his input system, via hooking. It doesn't really interact at ALL with the server, except pass through it.

In terms of windower history, there has never been actual "sending" back to the server. i.e. No false data.

Some people thing too much for their own good, and it happens to the best of us. It's something cool, not horrible.

One of the reason windower hasn't been on SE's prime target list is the fact that it does not go back to the server, thus they can't see it!

I'm all for what Cliff does and is doing. People need to think and reason this out. It's like making a camera and everyone screams, "OMG it's stealing our souls! WITCH!"

[Medalink]

I never once said once that this connects to the server. In fact on many times I have said otherwise. I know Windower is not a threat. And I know it does not interact with the server. All I was stateing is what would possibly happen if it starts to, I still hold firm in thinking SE has a way of tracking Windower Users.

Medalink