[Macht]

Originally Posted by Siber

As far as I know about 3.2, you can't script all that well with it for botting and whatnot. The big thing w/ 3.2 is it's plugin interface which will allow things like a minimap to be viewed while still being able to run, Airship times, TP of party members, the mobs % health left, and also ability counters (like recast, but always shown on the screen so you don't have to type /recast)

Well I guess that isn't to bad, but how is it getting that info probably is how SE determines it's threat to the game. If it's getting that through packet sniffs then I'm sure if I was working at SE I'd feel quite uncomfortable with it running, it's just a heartbeat away then from doing something more damaging.

Not to mention it starts to lead to bad data passing to their server which is more headache and problems on their end. It means possibility of a person sending data that could crash the server or worse.

[Reisuki]

THe new windower is increadibly powerful. You could probably make a bot plugin.... I mean people are deloping plugins that take screenshots and send them to servers. Plugins that can take data off an XML sheet online and display it inside the windower, like mob data. The new windower does have the potential to have bot plugins made for it. One guy is trying to develop a plugin that plays RDM for him. xD

Putting that aside, even though I find it very interesting >.>, if you talk about 3rd PT programs within the game on your own head be it... but who is so anally retentive to report a guy saying he uses a windower?

Oh wait... "That" guy.

[Siber]

Unless the method's have been changed, the Windower should be just a memory reader, not a packet sniffer. He's also not telling people how exactly to modify or read the memory (I believe he does a lot of programming in assembly, but the plugin frontend is C++ or VB). Also, he hasn't released the offsets (nor the starting pos) of FFXI party player data or timers, he only has a link to the basics like your HP, MP, stats, and stat mods.

But if I recall, he does have a set of functions to call data from the game. The only writing of data I've heard though is his basic DX API functions for displaying text/images on the screen.

[Ziero]

It basically says in the ToS of the game that all 3rd party programs are against the rules and are bannable offenses, so it's no surprise to me that someone can get banned for it. But the person that reported it prolly had a personal problem with the guy he reported. I personnally like using the windower just for being able to window it, but I doubt I'll use all those plugins cause that's goin a bit too far into messin with the actual game data imo.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Ziero

It basically says in the ToS of the game that all 3rd party programs are against the rules and are bannable offenses, so it's no surprise to me that someone can get banned for it. But the person that reported it prolly had a personal problem with the guy he reported. I personnally like using the windower just for being able to window it, but I doubt I'll use all those plugins cause that's goin a bit too far into messin with the actual game data imo.

If someone in game tells you they are using a 3rd party program it is a good safety precaution also to warn the GMs. If at any times the GMs were to trace that persons conversation history and spots this admittance, then depending on the GMs policy they could ban the person using the 3rd party program as well as the people he has admitted it to if they don't report him. It's basically similar to aiding a criminal.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by StarvingArtist

The tools and information by themselves don't cheat, but there are people who find ways of using them to do so.

That's unfourtunate but true. Something as innocent as a windower can easily lead to full on hacking and cheating. Some people just want to browse the internet an look up info while others will use to to alter game data or sniff out mobs before they even pop. The whole reason why SE didn't release a windower with the game was to attempt to prevent this stuff from happening, but when someone wants something bad enough it's hard to stop em from gettin it.

[Siber]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Some people just want to browse the internet an look up info while others will use to to alter game data or sniff out mobs before they even pop. The whole reason why SE didn't release a windower with the game was to attempt to prevent this stuff from happening

If SE had released a windower w/ the game, in no way would it have been used to alter game data or sniff out mobs before they popped. They just didn't want people to be able to look up information or run 3rd party programs, but the windower itself (if released by SE) would not have the plugin interface it does now nor would we have had to gone through all the trouble of figuring out how to make the windower (and thus know the underlyings of FFXI) unless we wanted to cheat. Do not blame windower for altering game data or reading memory to know when monsters are about to pop. Anyone with the willpower to make those hacks could have made them, hot keyed them to keys on the keyboard, and not even needed a windower in the first place.

Starving, the only reliance the 4 released hacks had on windower was that it allowed FFXI to lose focus so that they could be run. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. The very same way I use windower to open up Firefox is the same way I tested the hacks.

[kuu]

Windower doesn't stop people making bots. It just makes it easier...Though on can say giving a person a sissor isn't really very liable in the making of a bomb.

There's only so many levels you can relate a good thing to a bad thing, or in this case, an acceptable thing to a bad thing.

Any person with enough programing knowledge to make memory readers, and stuff, and even high level bots, can make a windower like program. Heck as windower 2.0 is open sourced, anyone can use that, and apply it, without having the official windower.

GM banning is probably from the resent hacks. GM are put on high alert for now, and anyone that held a similar job knows that when management comes down on you on a topic, you're extra stern on it for a while, even if you're playing the bad buy.

Really... I hope this doesn't turn into a witchhunt.. or one of those last century taboo sex topics where, "everyone does it, but no one talks about it, because getting caught is bad" ->Kinsey

[Jei]

why the hell did someone report... that's absurd.

looking from S-E's perspective I think it's understandable why they ban. Especially the newer cheats these days that are enabled through windowers it's just scarey.

But seriously there's a lot of people that just want to windowed and nothing else. With out windower a lot of players may likely quit.... it's just plain boring in game sometimes that we need a break and look at other stuff. S-E should just implement their own window mode and ban the cheats.

[Siber]

Originally Posted by Jei

S-E should just implement their own window mode and ban the cheats.

They'd have to basically admit they were wrong then in order to do that, and I honestly don't expect them to say or even imply something like that.

[kuu]

Originally Posted by StarvingArtist

The truely determined and knowledgeable people will find ways even without the windower. However, it does elminate some steps for those that aren't as informed. Ask me how to write/enable a script and you'll just get a "huh?" from me. Using the windower I can just go click on the SuperClimb program and say "I am a hax0rz". It doesn't have to be only the programmers that are exploiting these things, it can just as well be the average player clicking a button because it was simplified.

Not really...most likely hack programs will just implement their own windower in some fashion.

Nothing stops a hacker to just hook it so you get a control bar for your hacks floating on top of ffxi.

Windower is just a "generalized" utility.

The hacking/scripting world will not change from a lack of windower.

[Jei]

kuu... did you understand what starving said? What he meant is that windower is simplifying the expliot so it's easier for average users to get a hold of them. Nothing to do with having to be a hacker to find a way around.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Jei

kuu... did you understand what starving said? What he meant is that windower is simplifying the expliot so it's easier for average users to get a hold of them. Nothing to do with having to be a hacker to find a way around.

Exactly, but still it boils down to the hackers skill as well. If the hacker is good enough they can setup a program that runs first then looks for FFXI when it starts then hooks it so the windower wouldn't be needed.

Since doing what I mentioned though takes some rewritting just messing with the windower itself is the fastest for temporary solutions.

[Siber]

It is true that it does make it easier for the general schmuck to use hacks, but then again, how available have hacks been until recently? Not very available in the first place. The thing is though, even the most basic of bots dont' require windower to run. They use a program called AutoIT which has it's own set of functions that can simulate key presses in the back ground keeping FFXI in focus. This allowed for the old fishing bots to run fairly easily with the only knowledge required (after easily finding the bot on an MMORPG FAQ site) was how to install the program, put the bot in the autoit directory, and click "Run script." and then load FFXI asap.

The current windower for the NA release doesn't allow wireframe mode or other visual modes Starving. The JP windower has been out longer than the one coming under fire has been, and, from what I can tell, the JP version has been able to do more for awhile as well. Right now, the NA programming base is finally starting to catch up to the JP programming base. Is that something to be feared? Maybe, but you said it yourself, fewere people know what windower is than don't. We will keep fighting the emergency updates, and continuing to have them only draws attention to an unknown problem for most people. They then come to a site like this one, see people say "Damn SE for trying to break Windower!" and now they're curious. "What's windower?" they ask. "What does it do?" We reply that it makes life easier, so naturally they want it. Easy life means a better life generally when technology is involved.

[Macht]

You really can't believe that the general public will always remain clueless of this do you? There's thousands of different ways for them to become aware of it, not just some forum talking about it. When I first became aware of hacks for Diablo and other online games I just decided to search it out of curiosity. I never actually used one till my brother had installed it, then I gave it a try and got hooked on the Diablo hacks.

That got extreemly boring for me though, thats when I realized I loved the challenge once it was gone there was no point. You'll realize that really fast when you get the top through cheating and start to assume you have bragging rights for it, then to realize if anyone found out you got there through hacks they'd just discredit your achievement. So you try not to mention that part but then when they ask more and more questions of how and what to do were you can't as effectively answer they find out still that your achievement is a farse and loose credit again.

Anyway trailing off here, point I was getting at is people complaining on a forum is not going to really change what many will likely find by curiosity. Especially as it grows more in awareness, SE likely saw this starting to occur and decided to nip it in the butt before it gets worse.