[Pounce]

Honest question.

Lv41+, would you exp without refresh? If you were invited to an exp party that did not have a RDM or BRD, would you stay with it?

I'm talking about more-or-less standard party setups, not things like mana/arrowburn, etc.

Also, for the sake of argument, let's say the tank is a PLD or WAR, not a NIN.

[Susurrus]

I voted yes, but of course it all depends on the party setup. I've been in a couple parties on my WHM 60+ w/ no refresher that was absolutely wonderful. These parties are rare, but they're possible.

[lionx]

I would depending on how the party was set up too and what we are exping on. Obviously we cant fight things that are too IT++ without refresh unless you bring a wad tons of juice. But on the other hand i can always sub BRD and get Ballad 1 and be the psuedo BRD. Its there for a reason Well one of the reasons anyway...rarely people ask me to sub BRD..=/ But i find it has its uses without a real BRD.

[Tan'o]

It's really a moot point till you get BLM 64 because only BRD and RDM have Dispel till then. Juice isn't expensive so it's easily possible but Dispel is something that you can't live without.

You could argue SMN for Dispel, but when you have everyone's mob of choice, Crabs, with multiple buffs which they spam, or any type of Beastmen that have multiple up at any time, read: Goblins, it extends fights by alot.

When you get the jobs with Dispel, BRD and RDM, you expect them to go the whole Refresh thing as a main job.

After 64 maybe..just maybe with enough juice/ingredients and a very competent PT.

[truenoir]

Overall though, I'd have to go with that answer too. Refresh, I can live without it as BLM...half the time I did anyway so far due to less-that-stellar RDMs...
Dispel, however, is not an option on a lot of mobs, especially the common crab/beetle/crawler. Incidentally, same general jobs you want for refresh provide that.

[Marvul]

I'm BRD so this question is unfair for me to answer.

[Jei]

most mages I PT with these days and a lot of Pld+Drk can make their own juice. not as fast as refresh but still any regen helps. So yea.

[Icemage]

Juicing only goes so far. Unless you do something weird like arrowburn with lots of utsusemi, you're going to run into some down time.

So no, if I can't find a RDM or BRD, then I won't waste my time XPing - there's more productive things I could be doing.


Icemage

[fuz]

> 90% of the time, I refuse to PT without some sort of consistent and significant refresh. It otherwise takes an incredibly well assembled PT to exp at the same per hour rate--which would likely go even faster if the PT had a refresher. I just won't take chances on a PT without a dedicated refresher since that could very well be 2-5 hours of wasted effort. Just too much frustration, even for a melee.

There are some exceptions to the rule, but for the majority of the time I'll pass.

[Rones]

A pld tank with no refresher is a waste of time. Ideally you don't wait between fights, but a pld without refresh must. A party with no refresher can work with a nin tank and a skilled smn/whm or whm/blm though, but you ruled that out.

[kuu]

Hahaha that's a good one trying to get a smn for dispel. Not only is bloodpact 1 min (depends on penence set), you have to have fenrir also. It's so not worth it when you can make up damage lost from another bp.

As for living without dispel, or refresh. It's possible depending on style, setup, and monster.

Monsters like Raptors have very little buffs, so they're not really needed to dispel.

Refresh doesn't really do that much depending on how mana dependent a pt is. Have a smn, whm, blm combo and maybe a heavy hitting, low maintence melee like nin, thf, rng. And you're most likely then not sitting on mp for the big one.

And there are situations where you take power, over all. Heavy front end, light support. If you have a melee set that can hit a monters harder then it can put up a defense, refresh or dispel is minor. Just have 4-5 melee beat down, curaga, sit, curaga.

End game merit point xp pt is sometimes like that too. Nothing fancy, just bumrush, curaga, continue.

[Tifa]

Hell, people can barely get me out of Jeuno without a rdm and a bard for merit parties.

From level 41 on? No way I'd join anything without Rdm or Bard. You're either going to kill masses of T-VT and pretend like it's working, or try IT mobs and end up with heaps of downtime. Especially with a PLD tank, who needs MP to function correctly. And a PLD on one knee is not a PLD with his sword out.

After level 50 - ask your WHM to sub bard if you're really going to try leveling without a RDM or BRD. Although, you'd be hard pressed to find a white mage with a leveled bard sub, and even more challenged to find someone who actually wanted to do it.

Eh, I've said too much again.

[Cavalier]

Even though being a PLD, I've fallen in love w/ RDM and BRD (and THF's SATA too... provoke? I don't need no stinkin' provoke!), I voted yes.


With a good pt/good players, you can keep the downtime to only after chain #5 (and keep the downtime minimal, at that). That being said, I probably wouldn't pt with just any 'pick-up' that didn't have RDM or BRD, but I would with LS members or people that I've pt'd with before.

In fact, I like to pt w/o RDM or BRD once in a GREAT, GREAT while (liek if I'm 2k tnl or something), just to make sure I don't get lazy on managing my MP (it's pretty easy to keep hate when you can spam cures/banish/holy/etc non-stop). Plus, I have a Dark Staff now. :D


(Ironicaly, I just got out a pt that had RDM and BRD, and zero downtime for 2 hours. Bathroom Break, {Can I have it?}.)

[Serantos]

As a PLD, I find it hard to xp without a refresh, it's possible, I just wont be able to WS as much. At lvl 60 as a hume PLD I have 254 MP. And depending on the whm, I usually burn around 100-150 MP a battle, flashing and curing. I love having a RDM in a PT, but if theres none available? Oh well, life goes on.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally posted by Cavalier


(Ironicaly, I just got out a pt that had RDM and BRD, and zero downtime for 2 hours. Bathroom Break, {Can I have it?}.)

Yes I had 2 pt's recently on my rdm where there was also a brd. Downtime = 0. No less than chain 5's. Good thing I was the rdm because when I needed a bathroom break I could actually get them to pause until I got back!

As for refresh, I've pt'd with no refresher. I would say that 85% of the time the pt wasn't very productive. There were the few that had certain elements that made them work out fine but they were rare. No matter what job I'm playing, I do prefer to have a refresher. But when I'm playing a mage job I'm not one of those people that puts in their search comment "No Refresh, no party". If the going is tough that night I'll take a pt with no refresher or just log off.