[Keyura]

Originally Posted by Macht

Yes, he did do something that caused the windower to not return the registry changes back correctly. Point is something does change when windower is used, it's only a matter of identifying that change.

yes, we said that it changes the way D3D works, but that in no way does anything that's against the ToS or the MA cause they only bar messing with the game itself, all windower does is tell D3D to run in an window and think its fullscreen. its just interrupting those api calls.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Keyura

yes, we said that it changes the way D3D works, but that in no way does anything that's against the ToS or the MA cause they only bar messing with the game itself, all windower does is tell D3D to run in an window and think its fullscreen. its just interrupting those api calls.

Yes, that's what the old windower does, but the newer one with the plug-ins doesn't just do that anymore. The newer windower actually is messing with the game though. Either way just the same as the windower interrupts the API calls from FINAL FANTASY XI it doesn't mean that FINAL FANTASY XI can detect the interruptions and send a notification back to SQUARE ENIX.

[Keyura]

the new plugins, specifically TParty, reads the memlocs, all it does is read and display whats on your ram cause they know which values in the ram correspond to what i nthe game. again, doesn't affect the game.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Keyura

the new plugins, specifically TParty, reads the memlocs, all it does is read and display whats on your ram cause they know which values in the ram correspond to what i nthe game. again, doesn't affect the game.

yes but SE did not see Windower as a threat untill they added that extra crud, the creater of Windower should have just left it at that a Windower, and not add any other extra stuff. SE is attacking Windower now because it gives access to unfare advantages that the older version did not. Even though it is in you rmemmory, if SE wanted you to read it they would have given you the tools to do so with the game.

[Keyura]

Originally Posted by Kailea-D

yes but SE did not see Windower as a threat untill they added that extra crud, the creater of Windower should have just left it at that a Windower, and not add any other extra stuff. SE is attacking Windower now because it gives access to unfare advantages that the older version did not. Even though it is in you rmemmory, if SE wanted you to read it they would have given you the tools to do so with the game.

which is a good point, but why are they slowing down my connection to the game by sending me extra shit they aren't going to let me access? someone said this was so that <tp> was already on ur system but anyone in the entire game can send u <tp> and i know they aren't going to have 3000 peoples <tp> stored on my ram, thats stupid. the same goes for alliance member's <mp> its just stupid the way they've sent all this info to us and not used it. and in response to macht, yes, they could do that, but the ToS nor the MA gives them the right to scan my computer. if they did, i'd sue them for invading my privacy cause who cares about the game, thats illegal to scan my processes.

[Macht]

The game has a level of priority of what it sends you. Most stuff like TP, HP, etc.. is Zone only not the eniter world. The only thing I can think of that is global is the Linkshell conversations. Other then that the rest of the data sent to you is zone based only. Even though you are being sent the extra crap would you preffer the server detail out what you get only adding in more needless programming and querying that'll only server to slow the server down?

Why put all that load on the server when the clients have enough processing power to take part of it as well? The design is more to be speed friendly overall and not just distincts. The developers designed it to help reduce latency you going to mess with it simply because you're going to complain of a few extra kilobytes taken in your memory? O.o

Also as far as detecting APIs the name of the game basically boils down to which gets theirs processes running first. They can inject their own controls then and monitor when another API tries to do something and do actions accordingly.

EDIT:

Also forgot System Messages are global too duhh... >.>

[Tipsy]

he says they dont tolerate any third party programs...does that mean Fraps is illegal too? O.o

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Tipsy

he says they dont tolerate any third party programs...does that mean Fraps is illegal too? O.o

Technically that would be a yes. However unless it's proven to make some profound impact of giving someone an advantage in any slightest of way in the game they aren't likely to go after it. That's mostly why the new windower is under so much heat.

[Balfree]

blagh this is blatant nonsense

i could just ask everyone to spam their TP every second, would that be against your so called TOS's too square?

why wasnt this added in the first place ANYWAY, really, i'd like to know, why do they add stuff like 'ooooo, change into a hare!' stuff instead of upgrading the stuff that needs upgrading, some random guy can make the TP show, but square cant? like wtf? is _not_ showing the players' tp a part of the game's difficulty? so as i said before if i ask everyone to tell me their tp everytime they land a hit will this screw me over too?

so the third party software allows for exploits and cheating does it? why not build a bunker and hide yourself for the rest of your lives then? being in the open allows for me to cut your neck, you should terminate my account for i have the ability to walk, which allows me to walk behind your back and stab you, maybe break my legs, or put me in jail.

what you need to do is make the money i pay you worthwhile and keep killing bad third party software, like fishing bots and claiming bots, you cannot, for the smallest chance, avoid the open doors that allow for these exploits

maybe i didnt make much sense in some stuff i said, but im ranting blatantly out here so whatever

dont quote me! >.<!!

lol

[Pai Pai Master]

Originally Posted by Keyura

the new plugins, specifically TParty, reads the memlocs, all it does is read and display whats on your ram cause they know which values in the ram correspond to what i nthe game. again, doesn't affect the game.

First and foremost, it gives you the ability to see your enemy's TP. I highly doubt they care about a player with TParty being able to see his/her allies TP. As many of you have said, it's pointless because you can just ask what their TP is. However, because you are able to see the enemy's TP, that player has an "unfair advantage," as the GM said. It allows you to gain information from the server that a player shouldn't be allowed to access.

Even if it is a very small detail (knowing an enemy's TP won't cause you to be able to beat an HNM with 10 less people, I know), it's still something worthy enough for Square Enix to go after. They had no problem with Windower before 3.2, because it was nothing but a simple tool to allow the player to use FFXI in a window. However, now that there are these possibilities opened up, Windower 3.2 could mean trouble because it is so widespread, unlike other botting/hacking tools.

[Keyura]

Originally Posted by Pai Pai Master

First and foremost, it gives you the ability to see your enemy's TP. I highly doubt they care about a player with TParty being able to see his/her allies TP. As many of you have said, it's pointless because you can just ask what their TP is. However, because you are able to see the enemy's TP, that player has an "unfair advantage," as the GM said. It allows you to gain information from the server that a player shouldn't be allowed to access.

Even if it is a very small detail (knowing an enemy's TP won't cause you to be able to beat an HNM with 10 less people, I know), it's still something worthy enough for Square Enix to go after. They had no problem with Windower before 3.2, because it was nothing but a simple tool to allow the player to use FFXI in a window. However, now that there are these possibilities opened up, Windower 3.2 could mean trouble because it is so widespread, unlike other botting/hacking tools.

it doesn't show enemy's TP. it shows enemy's HP as a percentage, that number is NOT their TP. i dunno where u got that idea unless they've updated the program within the last 24 hours and i haven't downloaded the update.

[Yossar]

Originally Posted by Keyura

it doesn't show enemy's TP. it shows enemy's HP as a percentage, that number is NOT their TP. i dunno where u got that idea unless they've updated the program within the last 24 hours and i haven't downloaded the update.

Yup, it only shows Party TP, Alliance MP, and HP Percentage on almost anything you target.

As for S-E "targeting" windower because of these things, I just don't see it. Yeah, someone got banned because someone in his party reported him for talking about it. That could have easily happened before Windower 3.2. The first of those two updates (the one that temporarily broke windower) happened before 3.2 was released. The second update didn't affect Windower at all. Face it, they were targeting those speed hacks and not targeting windower. They have yet to specifically target Windower in any way differant than what they were doing before 3.2 was released.

[Keyura]

Originally Posted by solid-jamz

Yup, it only shows Party TP, Alliance MP, and HP Percentage on almost anything you target.

ya, its fun seeing the HP% of a ??? or the auction counter ha ha. its wierd though, sometimes the ??? in KRT shows less than 100, dunno why. And windower isn't the target, yet, but i hear FFassist didn't work after the last update.

[Medalink]

Allright I think I can clear some things up, As I am a small time game developer and a programmer.

First this is taken from the "FINAL FANTASY XI Software License Agreement"

2.4Restrictions.To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a)modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;


Ok the way the "Windower" was made was by reverse engineering or in some way dissembleing the code. This alone make the program a break of ToS. Second why SE is not happy with it is it allows the end-user to pull data from storage and use it for intent other than whats meant to be. SE did no want us to know everyones TP by a monitor. SE wants us to ask for TP. The "Windower" allows this data to be aquiredby means other than what was intended. SE knows since TP is being accessed without ther intent that other things can aswell. They do not want us to uncover more data than what they want us to do.

And as a Game Devloper I agree. I make the game the way I want users to play it. Not how they want it. SE aperently did something right in makeing this game as they have millions of members. If you dont like the current UI (User Interface) built into the game then don't play the game. If you want to know everyones TP at all times tell them to make a /tell Macro and push it every 3 seconds. Otherwise SE has full rights to BAN/Terminate your account due to you useing a Program that was made in breach of there ToS.

If you want the UI changed contact SE and speak your ideas. Other wise use it and get banned. And a small note for the ones that do use it, I can garantee SE is useing/testing the "Windower" and finding out how it works, in knowing how it works they will write things into there game to block this and track it, be carefull as anything can and will be tracked. Its the same way the people who made the "Windower", SE is disassembleing the "Windower" and they will find you.

Medalink

[Yossar]

Originally Posted by Medalink

Allright I think I can clear some things up, As I am a small time game developer and a programmer.

First this is taken from the "FINAL FANTASY XI Software License Agreement"

2.4Restrictions.To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a)modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;


Ok the way the "Windower" was made was by reverse engineering or in some way dissembleing the code. This alone make the program a break of ToS. Second why SE is not happy with it is it allows the end-user to pull data from storage and use it for intent other than whats meant to be. SE did no want us to know everyones TP by a monitor. SE wants us to ask for TP. The "Windower" allows this data to be aquiredby means other than what was intended. SE knows since TP is being accessed without ther intent that other things can aswell. They do not want us to uncover more data than what they want us to do.

And as a Game Devloper I agree. I make the game the way I want users to play it. Not how they want it. SE aperently did something right in makeing this game as they have millions of members. If you dont like the current UI (User Interface) built into the game then don't play the game. If you want to know everyones TP at all times tell them to make a /tell Macro and push it every 3 seconds. Otherwise SE has full rights to BAN/Terminate your account due to you useing a Program that was made in breach of there ToS.

If you want the UI changed contact SE and speak your ideas. Other wise use it and get banned. And a small note for the ones that do use it, I can garantee SE is useing/testing the "Windower" and finding out how it works, in knowing how it works they will write things into there game to block this and track it, be carefull as anything can and will be tracked. Its the same way the people who made the "Windower", SE is disassembleing the "Windower" and they will find you.

Medalink

Tell us something we don't already know, please. Also, was it really necessary to bump a topic that's over a month old?

Yes, we know it's against the TOS. Yes, we know S-E doesn't want us to use it. Yes, we will continue to use it. We can argue about the ethics of it all we want, but the fact of the matter is, no one is going to change their mind one way or the other by any of the hundread posts on this topic (which is probably why no one has really talked about it). It's a risk people are willing to take (quite of people at that).

Oh, and S-E has broken Windower in the past and will continue to do so (hence version 3.xx). Honestly, compared to some of the actual cheating crap out (packet sniffing and the such) Windower is the least of S-E's concerns. Plus, the dev team for Windower has done a decent job of controling what plugins will and will not be made. TParty is only the tip of the iceberg of what can be done in the new windower, however they've at least drawn a line that they will not cross. Whether you agree with where they placed that line or not, you should at least credit them with doing so when they could open the doors up completely and allow any number of cheating devices that are a hell of a lot more harmful to our gameplay than seeing our party member's TP.

Sorry to go off on a rant. This topic has been beaten like a dead horse (yes, I know I just beat it a few more times ><).