[TheGrandMom]

This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much!

[Icemage]

As a side note: I bet this is why Bards have such a problem with gaining aggro in long HNM fights. Each song they play gives them 6 points of enmity (one for each party member), so the more they sing, the higher their permanent enmity rating rises. It also partly explains why Mazurka was so absurdly broken in terms of spike enmity gain, since the effect is magnified six times.

I bet Corsairs probably pick up tons of enmity this way, too (due to rerolls), but I've yet to see a Corsair in a main tanking party at an extended HNM event.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I bet Corsairs probably pick up tons of enmity this way, too (due to rerolls), but I've yet to see a Corsair in a main tanking party at an extended HNM event.

Phantom Roll is limited to once a minute; unless Double Up has enmity value, I don't see COR tanking.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Phantom Roll is limited to once a minute; unless Double Up has enmity value, I don't see COR tanking.

I wasn't talking about it from a tanking perspective, but more of a "wow this job picks up a lot of enmity over time and will eventually get nibbled on by the HNM" situation. Bards sing once every minute or so. Phantom Roll + Double Up happens much more often, especially with merits figured in - hence why I suspect that Corsairs pick up a lot more residual enmity than Bards do.


Icemage

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Actually we now have a way of determining the amount of spike hate generated by Flash and Provoke. Simply get several players with Provoke and Flash near a zone with a RDM and Lv0 enemies. Have the RDM cast Dispel once and let one player Provoke and one Flash. Then have the RDM cast Dispel again and let the players zone while another two cast Provoke and Flash. This could get us within 320 hate units.

Hopefully we also find that Flash and Provoke have a high amount of non-decaying hate with additional testing. I have a RDM and SAM/WAR (Third Eye, Provoke), so I'll volunteer to do some testing of Provoke. Anyone on Lakshmi have a WHM or PLD who could help with Flash?

After reading Part 1, I see that I'll have to avoid pulling with RDM. I propose pulling with SAM/WAR Provoke, having RDM cast Dispel, and then zoning my SAM/WAR before proceeding with the tests.

Goals
Figure out how much hate does not decay from Provoke.
Figure out how much spike hate Provoke generates.
Figure out how fast hate decays from Provoke.
Notes: This will be done as a Lv75 SAM/WAR against Lv0 enemies.

Also it would be interesting to do the same for some Cure spells. I'm afraid I lack sufficient equipment for this, but I could see testing the effects of Enmity-X gear on the non-decaying portion of Dispel with the help of another mage.

Any ideas for what else is worth testing and how to improve on my method?

I'm excited that we may learn how to better control hate and allow for more tanking options.

[Armando]

100,000 gil says Provoke is purely decaying. I'd say I guarantee it but I haven't done any well-documented tests recently.

10k says Flash decays too.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Provoke Initial Test Results

Dispel x 5 > Initial Provoke > Dispel x 4
Provoke > Dispel x 4 for ~9 sec (does not fit with Hypothesis A; should be 6 sec)
Provoke > Dispel x 3 for ~15 sec
Provoke > Dispel x 2 for ~21 sec (does not fit with Hypothesis A or C; should be 18 sec)
Provoke > Dispel x 1 for ~27 sec

Given: Fully Decayed Dispel = 320 Units of Non-Decaying Hate or final Hate/Enmity Units (fHU)
1600 HU > Initial Provoke > 1280 HU

Given: Fully Decayed Blind = 1 fHU
Provoke x 3 > Blind x 3 > Provoke x 2 > Blind x 2 > Provoke x 1 > Blind x 1
Blind was used before Provoke, so the person who had the highest HU before HU became equal keeps hate.
Fully Decayed Provoke = 1 HU

Hypothesis A:
Provoke = 1500 initial Hate Units (iHU) which decay at a rate of 150 HU every 3 sec down to 1 final Hate Unit (fHU)

Hypothesis B:
Provoke = 1500 iHU which decay after 3 sec at a rate of 166.67 HU every 3 sec down to 1 fHU

Hypothesis C:
Provoke = 1400 iHU which decay after 6 sec at a rate of 200 HU every 3 sec down to 1 fHU

Hypothesis B holds against all of my initial data, but I plan to do some more testing now that I have some ideas to test more thoroughly. Check back later this week for more results.

Does anyone else see how easily Dispel can be abused?
Can anyone think of a better acronym for Hate/Enmity Units than HU?

Note: '>' symbol should be read as greater than

Comment: When I zone Ryoii out while she still has hate, claim is lost on the enemy, but Nonomii maintains hate. Using this, I was able to get Provoke+Claim > 1600 HU (5 Dispel). I'll work to figure out exactly how much HU claim provides once I figure out exactly how Provoke works. I believe Claim has a fHU of 0.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much!

I'd think NINs would care about this too... -- Pteryx

[Armando]

Sleep probably has a certain amount of permanent hate, otherwise mobs wouldn't be so eager to kill BLMs after sitting on their asses for a whole minute.

I think Hate Points would be the best name, but that would cause confusion with Health Points/Hit Points. So instead, I'd suggest Enmity Points. EPs looks less awkward than HU's in my opinion. But that's just me.

Tip: If you pin down Provoke's initial hate, it'll be much easier to figure out the decay rate.

[LilithAngel]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much!

Actually, I'd say this should get stickied in every forum. All jobs can equally find use in this information, not just tanks.

[WishMaster3K]

/head explodes.

Makes me want to renew a content ID up in this mother******..

[Armando]

Uh...guys? I just realized Chainspell + Dispel just became the most absurd thing ever.

I mean, all it takes is 32 Dispels to hit the hate cap. Chainspell Dispel can pretty much leave everyone in the dust hate-wise in the first 10 seconds of any fight, and after that, well, Dispel recast is only 10 secs. Between RDM's levels of Fast Cast, and some Haste...you can pretty cast Dispel every 6-7 secs and stay at the hate cap.

Sounds, excessive, but if you think about it, it would allow DRKs to go ape shit crazy with Souleater Bloodweapon WITHOUT TAKING HATE within the first 15 secs of a fight.

I'm scared.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Excellent example of a very easy way to abuse Dispel. Once I'm done looking at Provoke, I'll look at how enmity gear affects the fHU of Dispel and iHU of Provoke. Then we would need to better understand how quickly shadows take HU away. Does anyone have RDM/NIN on Lakshmi who would offer to assist me?

[IfritnoItazura]

Ryoii/Nonomii: I think your experiment may be lacking some details on the set up, which would be crucial for gaining confidence in your conclusion.

You should talk to Kaeko (Kanican's blogger) on how to bring it up to the standard needed. He responds pretty fast on the blog, so that should be a good way of contacting him.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I'll make sure to include all the details once I have a hard formula. I just wanted to share what I quickly observed in an hour of experimenting last night. The 3 person setup with two testers using Stoneskin and a refresher/puller is definately optimal.

Attempting this with only two characters was quite a pain: 1 dmg criticals, claim loss on zoning, etc. I should be able to find assistance this weekend.

My method for determining the time at which hate was lost was to keep track of who the enemy was targetting while watching the Provoke recast from Windower. I made sure to do this 5 times since the enemy's attack animation made this difficult. I'll probably up this to 10 times for future testing. I've also found that if longer durations are needed I can use my 2 hour recast compared against the recast of the ability being tested.

Please let me know if you can think of further ways to help with determining the rate of decay. Thank you all in advance.