11-07-2007, 10:37 AM | #16 (permalink) | | Necro Slayer Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,926 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 83 Thanked 349x in 218 Posts Gil: 4,059 Bank: 63,243 Total Gil: 67,302 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much! | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 01:16 PM | #17 (permalink) | | Digital Wizard Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 5,972 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 69 Thanked 455x in 298 Posts Gil: 3,705 Bank: 53,049 Total Gil: 56,754 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity As a side note: I bet this is why Bards have such a problem with gaining aggro in long HNM fights. Each song they play gives them 6 points of enmity (one for each party member), so the more they sing, the higher their permanent enmity rating rises. It also partly explains why Mazurka was so absurdly broken in terms of spike enmity gain, since the effect is magnified six times.
I bet Corsairs probably pick up tons of enmity this way, too (due to rerolls), but I've yet to see a Corsair in a main tanking party at an extended HNM event.
Icemage | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 01:43 PM | #18 (permalink) | | Sticky Paws Keeper of Knowledge Join Date: May 2006 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,873 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 235 Thanked 608x in 395 Posts Gil: 1,653 Bank: 101,720 Total Gil: 103,372 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Originally Posted by Icemage | | I bet Corsairs probably pick up tons of enmity this way, too (due to rerolls), but I've yet to see a Corsair in a main tanking party at an extended HNM event. | Phantom Roll is limited to once a minute; unless Double Up has enmity value, I don't see COR tanking.  “ I’m in pain, but I’m happy.”
“ It hurts, but I can smile.”
“ That’s why I can tell you from the depths of my being…” | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 02:05 PM | #19 (permalink) | | Digital Wizard Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 5,972 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 69 Thanked 455x in 298 Posts Gil: 3,705 Bank: 53,049 Total Gil: 56,754 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura | | Phantom Roll is limited to once a minute; unless Double Up has enmity value, I don't see COR tanking. | I wasn't talking about it from a tanking perspective, but more of a "wow this job picks up a lot of enmity over time and will eventually get nibbled on by the HNM" situation. Bards sing once every minute or so. Phantom Roll + Double Up happens much more often, especially with merits figured in - hence why I suspect that Corsairs pick up a lot more residual enmity than Bards do.
Icemage | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 03:05 PM | #20 (permalink) | | <3 Duo/Trio Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 155 Style: Light - Version 5 Thanks: 9 Thanked 21x in 17 Posts Gil: 4,365 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 4,365 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Actually we now have a way of determining the amount of spike hate generated by Flash and Provoke. Simply get several players with Provoke and Flash near a zone with a RDM and Lv0 enemies. Have the RDM cast Dispel once and let one player Provoke and one Flash. Then have the RDM cast Dispel again and let the players zone while another two cast Provoke and Flash. This could get us within 320 hate units.
Hopefully we also find that Flash and Provoke have a high amount of non-decaying hate with additional testing. I have a RDM and SAM/WAR (Third Eye, Provoke), so I'll volunteer to do some testing of Provoke. Anyone on Lakshmi have a WHM or PLD who could help with Flash?
After reading Part 1, I see that I'll have to avoid pulling with RDM. I propose pulling with SAM/WAR Provoke, having RDM cast Dispel, and then zoning my SAM/WAR before proceeding with the tests. Goals
Figure out how much hate does not decay from Provoke.
Figure out how much spike hate Provoke generates.
Figure out how fast hate decays from Provoke.
Notes: This will be done as a Lv75 SAM/WAR against Lv0 enemies.
Also it would be interesting to do the same for some Cure spells. I'm afraid I lack sufficient equipment for this, but I could see testing the effects of Enmity-X gear on the non-decaying portion of Dispel with the help of another mage.
Any ideas for what else is worth testing and how to improve on my method?
I'm excited that we may learn how to better control hate and allow for more tanking options. Last edited by Ryoii/Nonomii : 11-07-2007 at 03:43 PM. | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 03:17 PM | #21 (permalink) | | X's General FFXIWiki Team Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 2,690 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 189 Thanked 660x in 353 Posts Gil: 37,943 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 37,943 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity 100,000 gil says Provoke is purely decaying. I'd say I guarantee it but I haven't done any well-documented tests recently.
10k says Flash decays too. | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-07-2007, 09:43 PM | #22 (permalink) | | <3 Duo/Trio Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 155 Style: Light - Version 5 Thanks: 9 Thanked 21x in 17 Posts Gil: 4,365 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 4,365 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Provoke Initial Test Results
Dispel x 5 > Initial Provoke > Dispel x 4
Provoke > Dispel x 4 for ~9 sec (does not fit with Hypothesis A; should be 6 sec)
Provoke > Dispel x 3 for ~15 sec
Provoke > Dispel x 2 for ~21 sec (does not fit with Hypothesis A or C; should be 18 sec)
Provoke > Dispel x 1 for ~27 sec Given: Fully Decayed Dispel = 320 Units of Non-Decaying Hate or final Hate/Enmity Units (fHU)
1600 HU > Initial Provoke > 1280 HU Given: Fully Decayed Blind = 1 fHU
Provoke x 3 > Blind x 3 > Provoke x 2 > Blind x 2 > Provoke x 1 > Blind x 1
Blind was used before Provoke, so the person who had the highest HU before HU became equal keeps hate.
Fully Decayed Provoke = 1 HU Hypothesis A:
Provoke = 1500 initial Hate Units (iHU) which decay at a rate of 150 HU every 3 sec down to 1 final Hate Unit (fHU) Hypothesis B:
Provoke = 1500 iHU which decay after 3 sec at a rate of 166.67 HU every 3 sec down to 1 fHU Hypothesis C:
Provoke = 1400 iHU which decay after 6 sec at a rate of 200 HU every 3 sec down to 1 fHU
Hypothesis B holds against all of my initial data, but I plan to do some more testing now that I have some ideas to test more thoroughly. Check back later this week for more results.
Does anyone else see how easily Dispel can be abused?
Can anyone think of a better acronym for Hate/Enmity Units than HU?
Note: '>' symbol should be read as greater than Comment: When I zone Ryoii out while she still has hate, claim is lost on the enemy, but Nonomii maintains hate. Using this, I was able to get Provoke+Claim > 1600 HU (5 Dispel). I'll work to figure out exactly how much HU claim provides once I figure out exactly how Provoke works. I believe Claim has a fHU of 0. Last edited by Ryoii/Nonomii : 11-08-2007 at 06:31 AM. Reason: changed to using HU as the acronym for Hate Units | | ::Quote Selected:: | | The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ryoii/Nonomii For This Useful Post: | | | 11-07-2007, 10:36 PM | #23 (permalink) | | Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Auburn, ME Posts: 385 Style: Light - Version 6 Thanks: 170 Thanked 114x in 67 Posts Gil: 16,579 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 16,579 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Originally Posted by TheGrandMom | | This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much! | I'd think NINs would care about this too... -- Pteryx | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 07:34 AM | #24 (permalink) | | X's General FFXIWiki Team Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 2,690 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 189 Thanked 660x in 353 Posts Gil: 37,943 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 37,943 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Sleep probably has a certain amount of permanent hate, otherwise mobs wouldn't be so eager to kill BLMs after sitting on their asses for a whole minute.
I think Hate Points would be the best name, but that would cause confusion with Health Points/Hit Points. So instead, I'd suggest Enmity Points. EPs looks less awkward than HU's in my opinion. But that's just me.
Tip: If you pin down Provoke's initial hate, it'll be much easier to figure out the decay rate. | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 08:35 AM | #25 (permalink) | | K Seal Bandit! FFXIWiki Team Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Misawa AB, Japan Posts: 867 Style: Dark - Version 5 My Mood: Thanks: 217 Thanked 140x in 92 Posts Gil: 11,209 Bank: 40,193 Total Gil: 51,402 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Originally Posted by TheGrandMom | | This is just awesome. I can't tell you how many discussions through the years that I've heard about this subject! Stickied in PLD section! Thank you very much! | Actually, I'd say this should get stickied in every forum. All jobs can equally find use in this information, not just tanks.  | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 09:08 AM | #26 (permalink) | | Achiever Keeper of Knowledge Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 2,596 Style: Light - Version 4 My Mood: Thanks: 393 Thanked 227x in 133 Posts Gil: 7,544 Bank: 34,626 Total Gil: 42,170 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity /head explodes.
Makes me want to renew a content ID up in this mother******.. Originally Posted by Aksannyi | | I swear some melee would forget their fucking weapon if they didn't have it equipped every time they logged in. | | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 12:09 PM | #27 (permalink) | | X's General FFXIWiki Team Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 2,690 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 189 Thanked 660x in 353 Posts Gil: 37,943 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 37,943 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Uh...guys? I just realized Chainspell + Dispel just became the most absurd thing ever.
I mean, all it takes is 32 Dispels to hit the hate cap. Chainspell Dispel can pretty much leave everyone in the dust hate-wise in the first 10 seconds of any fight, and after that, well, Dispel recast is only 10 secs. Between RDM's levels of Fast Cast, and some Haste...you can pretty cast Dispel every 6-7 secs and stay at the hate cap.
Sounds, excessive, but if you think about it, it would allow DRKs to go ape shit crazy with Souleater Bloodweapon WITHOUT TAKING HATE within the first 15 secs of a fight.
I'm scared. Last edited by Armando : 11-08-2007 at 12:33 PM. | | ::Quote Selected:: | | The following user says "Thank You" to Armando for above post: | | | 11-08-2007, 12:31 PM | #28 (permalink) | | <3 Duo/Trio Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 155 Style: Light - Version 5 Thanks: 9 Thanked 21x in 17 Posts Gil: 4,365 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 4,365 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Excellent example of a very easy way to abuse Dispel. Once I'm done looking at Provoke, I'll look at how enmity gear affects the fHU of Dispel and iHU of Provoke. Then we would need to better understand how quickly shadows take HU away. Does anyone have RDM/NIN on Lakshmi who would offer to assist me? | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 01:00 PM | #29 (permalink) | | Sticky Paws Keeper of Knowledge Join Date: May 2006 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,873 Style: Light - Version 6 My Mood: Thanks: 235 Thanked 608x in 395 Posts Gil: 1,653 Bank: 101,720 Total Gil: 103,372 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity Ryoii/Nonomii: I think your experiment may be lacking some details on the set up, which would be crucial for gaining confidence in your conclusion.
You should talk to Kaeko (Kanican's blogger) on how to bring it up to the standard needed. He responds pretty fast on the blog, so that should be a good way of contacting him.  “ I’m in pain, but I’m happy.”
“ It hurts, but I can smile.”
“ That’s why I can tell you from the depths of my being…” | | ::Quote Selected:: | | 11-08-2007, 01:09 PM | #30 (permalink) | | <3 Duo/Trio Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 155 Style: Light - Version 5 Thanks: 9 Thanked 21x in 17 Posts Gil: 4,365 Bank: 0 Total Gil: 4,365 Donate | Re: Awesome testing done on enmity I'll make sure to include all the details once I have a hard formula. I just wanted to share what I quickly observed in an hour of experimenting last night. The 3 person setup with two testers using Stoneskin and a refresher/puller is definately optimal.
Attempting this with only two characters was quite a pain: 1 dmg criticals, claim loss on zoning, etc. I should be able to find assistance this weekend.
My method for determining the time at which hate was lost was to keep track of who the enemy was targetting while watching the Provoke recast from Windower. I made sure to do this 5 times since the enemy's attack animation made this difficult. I'll probably up this to 10 times for future testing. I've also found that if longer durations are needed I can use my 2 hour recast compared against the recast of the ability being tested.
Please let me know if you can think of further ways to help with determining the rate of decay. Thank you all in advance. Last edited by Ryoii/Nonomii : 11-08-2007 at 01:21 PM. | | ::Quote Selected:: | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | Posting Rules | You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:31 PM. | | |