[Lunaryn]

Originally Posted by Malacite

I'd still use Great Axe any day over axe pre-55. Shield Break + Acid Bolts = win

I normally do favor GAxe, but at the time I was leveling WAR/RNG from 15-25, SCs were still common, the attitude was still "try to keep all A-rank weapons leveled", I brought both GAxe and Axe+Shield to parties, and switched between them according to circumstance and/or whim. I found Axe+Shield to be nice for improving SC options given certain party compositions. Also, whenever I was partied with another WAR, if they used GAxe, I'd use Axe+Shield. If they used Axe (there are people who insist on using Axe+Axe from WAR20/NIN10 on, beyond all reach of logic; I did encounter my share of these), I used GAxe. Otherwise, I alternated, but favored GAxe in SC-unfriendly parties or where I wasn't part of the SC (or where Shield Break or Iron Tempest* could make the SC).

*Army can attest to this WS having Skillchaining as its only one legitimate purpose, as otherwise it's Shield Break without the Break.

[Pteryx]

So, been too busy to update this, I gather? -- Pteryx

[IfritnoItazura]

Got some large, free chunks of time while seeking on SCH, but got distracted with updating this instead. I'll see if I can spend more time look on SCH--that seems like a good way to stop doing anything in-game. x_x;
______________________________
I've never voiced this publicly before, but I was hoping to put this on Dreams' wiki myself, but that wiki seems to have been abandoned, more or less.

Would people mind terribly if I move the guide to FFXIclopedia instead? Or would you folks prefer to have the (updated) text (remain) here at Dreams in Vana'diel?

* * *

Personally, I'm on the fence; I still don't think FFXIClopedia's mission meshes well with personal guides, but it's long accepted there. Wiki-fying it would allow more people to participate in its evolution, though I'm far from ready to to hand it off to a system which would deny me editing rights, like the now defunct (?) sticky wiki-fication project on Dreams. *shrug*

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I've never voiced this publicly before, but I was hoping to put this on Dreams' wiki myself, but that wiki seems to have been abandoned, more or less.

Would people mind terribly if I move the guide to FFXIclopedia instead? Or would you folks prefer to have the (updated) text (remain) here at Dreams in Vana'diel?

I'd like it if you continued to update this sticky, no matter what else you decide to do with the guide. -- Pteryx

[IfritnoItazura]

A bit late, but might as well address this since I'm updating:

Originally Posted by Pteryx

Some points, both related to the above and to other aspects of the early parts of the guide:

• SCH gains heals and most Protect/Shell spells at the same rate as PLD. As such, it's typically not the best choice as a healer early on. At 40, however, it becomes the best status healer in the game, as well as the best crowd controller and a competitive buffer depending on the sub chosen.

I'm not entirely sure if "the best crowd controller" is a warranted label, since it won't be able to mach RDM in sleep resist, and its AoE Sleep II has longer cast time than BLM's Sleepga II, plus using it Manifestation would increase the recast time.

It certainly is the most "versatile" crowd controller, though, with the ability to AoE Sleep, Bind, and Gravity.

Very tempted to promote SCH's healer rating to the same level as WHM at the moment, given that RDM is more than good enough to be main healer for exp parties, and SCH is better than RDM.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• SCH is a good nuker, particularly at 20+ with a BLM subjob (or 40+ with a RDM subjob). While BLM is best at dealing damage in a short time, SCH is better at dealing damage over the long run.

Agree on this. However, there are surprising number of places where faster damage is useful, and where BLM's higher elemental skill is essential. I'd word it morel like "SCH is competitive with BLM's damage output over time."

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• For SCH, I recommend /BLM as a "minimal" sub, /RDM as an additional party sub, and /WHM as a special-purpose sub (since all SCH really gets from /WHM now is the ability to cast status heals regardless of Art).

Well, /WHM also provide Stratagem free Curaga, and earlier access to Stoneskin. A SCH/WHM can switch between healer and nuker/enfeebler mode much easier than with /BLM or /RDM, making better use of the job's inherent flexibility.

It's true that /BLM would do better damage in Lv.20's, but I would say the minimum should be either WHM (better flexibility) or RDM (better enfeebling repertoire), after leveling through Lv.20's using both /WHM, /RDM, and /BLM.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• For SCH, there are two trial levels to consider. By level 20, you have Regen, Cure II, and can get Magic Attack Bonus I from /BLM; thus, you can be effective as both a healer and a nuker, and can see if you'll like the climb to 40. 40 is another good level at which to make a judgement call, as that's when SCH gets its job-defining strategems Accession and Manifestation.

• DNC is a very handy solo subjob for most melee-oriented jobs. As for party usage, it could be useful to SAM (to apply their extra TP to healing the party when good healers are scarce), WAR (when tanking, to self-heal), PLD (at 40+ as a WAR alternative), and NIN (at 40+, even better than for PLD). It's also become the preferred solo sub for BST and PUP. (I've heard of PUP/DNC working well in parties too, but don't know the details.)
• SCH is a good sub for WHM, BLM, RDM, and SMN. It's additionally an alternative to /WHM for BLU. It would probably work nicely for DRG in the sorts of situations where it uses other mage subs, as well.

I agree, for the most part.

Due to the lack of Stoneskin, however, I don't think /SCH is a good match for BLM--unless there's a SCH in party buffing AoE Stoneskin, and the BLM is sticking close to the SCH enough to be a second shadow.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• Why is BLM/RDM considered "specialty"? On Midgard these days even a BLM in a full party, traditional or manaburn, is completely expected to sub RDM over WHM. If you sub WHM instead, people assume that you "must love healing" (to my healing-averse BLM friend's great chagrin, since he lacks /RDM).

Was written with traditional partying in mind; never came across the "you must love healing" upon seeing BLM/WHM mentality, to be honest.

Given how dreary the party scene is for BLMs, however, probably should drop labels like "specialty". It's still silly to use /RDM over /WHM in a traditional exp party, never the less.

As an overworked RDM, I have to say I hated it when I had BLM/RDM in exp parties party as the only other mage, especially when fightings Imps. I can always use the help with Silena with Imps; heck, even a SCH may want help with Silena at times. Good thing BLMs on Ifrit seem to have the common sense to use /WHM in traditional parties for the most part.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• Subjob options notable for their absence aside from the WotG ones: THF/RNG (accuracy, Wide Scan for pulling); RDM/PLD (specialty, a nice solo sub); RDM/BLU (specialty, also primarily another take on soloing, works because physical spells rely a lot on main weapon skill), COR/BRD (specialty, makes a good buffing specialist, particularly for mages in endgame).

Camps which need Widescan are rare and decidedly unpopular. Accuracy is nice, but how often do you see combinations like DRG/RNG or even SAM/RNG in the Lv.20's where /RNG really stands out? That said, if THF main job players tell me /RNG is a strong support job which every career THF should have and list some concrete examples, I guess I can change my mind.

As for RDM/PLD, RDM/BLU, I tried both. They are just too narrow in usage, even for specialty; vast majority of the time where they are good, another support job would do fine as well. (Can't be that special if generally anything else would be OK, right?)

I rather like RDM/SCH for nuke-kite fights--for that, no other support job comes close.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Well, /WHM also provide Stratagem free Curaga, and earlier access to Stoneskin. A SCH/WHM can switch between healer and nuker/enfeebler mode much easier than with /BLM or /RDM, making better use of the job's inherent flexibility.

It's true that /BLM would do better damage in Lv.20's, but I would say the minimum should be either WHM (better flexibility) or RDM (better enfeebling repertoire), after leveling through Lv.20's using both /WHM, /RDM, and /BLM.

OTOH, without MAB SCH's nukes are considerably less impressive. Remember that MAB I is +20%. I suppose requiring Addendum: White is more of an obstacle prior to 30, though.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I agree, for the most part.

Due to the lack of Stoneskin, however, I don't think /SCH is a good match for BLM--unless there's a SCH in party buffing AoE Stoneskin, and the BLM is sticking close to the SCH enough to be a second shadow.

My BLM friend gets away with it just fine. OTOH, he's also CoP-vintage -- he actually levelled in parties, and became excellent at judging where the hate line is. (Not to mention he, uh, usually forgot Stoneskin in the first place. He's anti-defense like you wouldn't believe.) Basically, playing BLM/SCH takes a tank (remember tanks?) and actual skill.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Was written with traditional partying in mind; never came across the "you must love healing" upon seeing BLM/WHM mentality, to be honest.

Given how dreary the party scene is for BLMs, however, probably should drop labels like "specialty". It's still silly to use /RDM over /WHM in a traditional exp party, never the less.

As an overworked RDM, I have to say I hated it when I had BLM/RDM in exp parties party as the only other mage, especially when fightings Imps. I can always use the help with Silena with Imps; heck, even a SCH may want help with Silena at times. Good thing BLMs on Ifrit seem to have the common sense to use /WHM in traditional parties for the most part.

Imps are about the only thing I can think of that's normally XPed on that would call for that sort of aid, though.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

As for RDM/PLD, RDM/BLU, I tried both. They are just too narrow in usage, even for specialty; vast majority of the time where they are good, another support job would do fine as well. (Can't be that special if generally anything else would be OK, right?)

RDM/PLD has one particularly potent defensive trick, though: Flash > Stoneskin. Flash tends to last just long enough for me to recast Stoneskin without being interrupted; thus, I find the combination to be very, very survivable. -- Pteryx

[Lunaryn]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Camps which need Widescan are rare and decidedly unpopular. Accuracy is nice, but how often do you see combinations like DRG/RNG or even SAM/RNG in the Lv.20's where /RNG really stands out? That said, if THF main job players tell me /RNG is a strong support job which every career THF should have and list some concrete examples, I guess I can change my mind.

You don't often see those combinations because most people don't hear about them. /RNG is awesome at low levels, but it's hard to talk about what works at low levels because you're always interrupted by someone talking about what works at high levels.

I'd say that /RNG ranks among the best low-level subs for THF so long as THF is making use of its native Marksmanship skill. It's also nice to have the extra acc when you're using Sword. But it's certainly not a must have. No one cares that much how good your sub is 10-30. Moreover, many players would rather go /NIN from 20-33 to skill dagger in off-hand. And /WAR starts to take off as a sub 30+. So you could easily get by never touching /RNG. I think you'd be missing out on something, but it's definitely not a must-have. Particularly as from 60 on it'll become increasingly difficult to justify subbing anything other than /NIN or /WAR.

Also, to forestall the inevitable "/NIN is better" response on RDM/PLD, Pter doesn't have NIN to 37 yet, but even compared to /NIN fully leveled, /PLD does provide somewhat stronger melee (Vorpal Blade, anyone?) alongside its survivability. So it provides something of a balance between the offerings of /NIN and /WAR in this context.

[RealArturon]

Sam ftw!