[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

On the contrary, the changes make the job much easier to endure pre-leave since they no longer have to endure an EXP penalty for charming EM pets. Basically, back when I and other BSTs levelled pre-35, we had to live with the EXP penalty and getting to 35 was a long, long road solo. Post-Leave we were forced to discard our pets like tissues to avoid the EXP penalty.

So the change made the job a little easier and more welcoming to play, getting to 35 is no longer the steep challenge it once was.

The duration of various jugs got extended and pets got an additional way to Regen HP outside of reward.

The description of BST makes absolutely no mention of Leave whatsoever.

I actually find much of the guide steers far too conservative the more I go back to it. The section on expense especially bugs me since it makes NIN, COR and RNG sound more expensive than they actually are, making them unattractive by labeling a consumable job as an "annoyance." Its not that hard to fund these jobs. I'm not a rich player, I've mananged RNG and COR to 75 just fine.

In fact, there's a lot of things that offset the ammo expenses, particularly since Ranged Accuracy Rings are cheap as dirt, Xbow ammo is insanely good and cheap and most of the best weapons and armor are quested, NM or BS/KS/ENM drops.

[Malacite]

>. > personally on the subject of BST I think it would have been a lot better on SE's part to have stuck with the killer traits of FFIX.

At least that way, even without /WAR or even a pet BST would still be a respectable (even feared ~.^) DD on the battlefield. Maybe 1.5 damage modifier? automatic double damage would be a bit much. Maybe increased crits... something other than the intimidation effect.

While intimidation is neat, it just doesn't compare IMO to what those traits did for the melee characters in IX. Having the different pets scare/be scared is enough, and these guys are supposed to know all about these creatures right? So it makes even more sense to go with increased damage (knowledge of their anatomies for surgical strikes, etc)

Somehow, I just can't see a Malboro being intimidated by some random shmuck... the same goes for the other jobs with these traits too. Since when do the undead feel fear?!

[IfritnoItazura]

Malacite, this is not a job design or wishlist thread. Kindly keep to the topic and the reality of the jobs as they are today, please.

[Malacite]

Was just replying to BBQ's comment. Relax. Generally when I read something like that and it puts an idea in my head, my first reaction on here is to get it out there.


de-railment over. ^^b

[hongman]

I still think /NIN ought to be there for RDM.

If you are going to even mention soloing for RDM, /NIN has its place.

[IfritnoItazura]

Frankly, I'm more interested in whether S-E mean to keep two-handed weapon's output as is then one person repeating the " /NIN for RDM" mantra. That said, the two-handed and PUP updates makes this guide outdated; it's in need of a substantial overhaul. I can revise the RDM section while I'm at it, but I'm not going to be moved by an one-liner "I think ..." or an "I feel ...".

Put forth a real argument--and remember that I consider what RDM can do for others more important than what they can do for themselves. (Same goes for any job.)

Ability to solo is a perk, and if you want to solo on /NIN or /PUP or whatever is just fine by me. Your time to use, your exp to risk, your support job to choose--in my guide, it matters not, unless it's the primary way of gaining exp on a job.

Or, write your own guide. =b

p.s. Hint: "RDM/NIN endgame tanking"

[hongman]

lol.

Ok, first things first. If you consider what RDM can do for others more than themselves, then I am fighting a losing battle. Soloing is just that - soloing. For your OWN pleasure and challenge.

In your guide, it matters not as you have already put it, so why continue? Why hint at RDM endgame tanking? That is not a way of primarily gaining exp.

I thought this guide was supposed to cover all (most) aspects of a job if you are going to level it, not just exp based information.

And yet you still mention soloing in the RDM part.

So much conflicting information, and so much resistance to adding a popular and already well established support job to this guide?!

And for your information, you will quickly find the majority of RDM solo /NIN is not for duel wielding. In fact, the majority of RDM solo you wont even have a weapon out (by solo I mean stuff you cant just beat to death holding 1 or 2 weapons regardless. Any job can do that.)

I'm not interested in putting forth arguement after arguement. The information on RDM is not complete in my eyes, until you acknowledge the true potential of the job. Hell, if you arent going to stick /NIN in there on solo basis alone, you may as well remove soloing from the reptoire.

EDIT: Ok, had a thought for your justification of adding /NIN in there. It follows the same principle that you have adding /DRK in there for Chain Stun. If this doesnt do it, I dont know what will.

In endgame, you will find RDM's are called upon a lot to kite /NIN. Reasons? An RDM has all the tools to be self sufficient in claiming and maintaining themselves, and keeping hate with their own natural line of spells.

You will find this probably more than you will find RDM/NIN tanking in endgame, as you already mentioned that yourself...

Although if you dont add something pertaining to RDM solo in there subbing /NIN I will personally still consider this guide innacurate and incomplete. I wont be able to sleep at night!

[IfritnoItazura]

Bautier,

I mentioned RDM can (slowly) soloing to help differentiate it from other jobs. I don't understand why you harp on that so much; it's a distinguishing feature of RDM, and it's not /NIN only at all by any stretch of the imagination.

And, yes, the "endgame" bit is somewhat contradictory; I'm attempting to satisfy you while making sure there's a better reason to include /NIN than just soloing on RDM, a job which doesn't need to solo to advance to Lv.75.

Looking back, BLM/NIN wouldn't have made it if not for the conditions which made BLM soloing such a necessity. Even then, I probably wouldn't have included it if it didn't turn out to be useful in endgame, since BLM/WHMs have been solo'ing for the longest time now.

The bottom line is that while endgame use is a small factor, it may push /NIN over the threshold--I don't have the experience or the time to research RDM endgame use, so figured you can contribute your expertise to settle that aspect of the issue, if you cared so much that /NIN is included.

* * *

I have used RDM/NIN, BTW, and looking forward to testing /BLU37 soon. This is not a guide for what you like to do as a solo RDM, nor what I use--it's about serving players new to RDM or some other job.

For these Lv.1 RDM people, do they, or do they not not need to get /NIN37 for their RDM? That, is the question.

My perspective? I've seen my sister's Elvaan RDM do some pretty nifty things for years--she didn't have /NIN37 until just a few months ago. She still haven't used RDM/NIN in practice, to my knowledge, since she's so comfortable with RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM, and brings out the /DRK when Stun is needed.

[hongman]

No, its not the ONLY subjob by any stretch of the imagination. But it is 1. And that 1 should be enough to earn its place.

You go on about how /NIN isnt needed, but then you go and include /DRK? The application and uses of /DRK are similar to how you would use /NIN - endgame, and soloing. People like Calllsito have been brave and skilled enough to show /DRK is useful in parties, but on the same note, same goes for /NIN.

I am trying to contribute my "expertise" on this issue, but it seems you are either not listening, not understanding or just plain resisting the facts I have put forward.

For these lvl1 RDM people, do they, or do they not need to get /BLM /DRK /BLU /anything other than WHM for their RDM? Answer is NO. But you still added the rest. Thinking about it, same goes for just having /BLM.

The part that bugs me? If you want to concentrate on exp till 75, fine by me. Its the fact that you have included /DRK in there, but not /NIN when both have their uses in both Endgame and Solo.

So answer me this.

How does /DRK earn its place in your guide just be being called upon as Chain Stunner, and /NIN doesnt for its use in Kiting and solo?

Guide should be consistent. Dont cover half an aspect of one thing and not the other.

[Axelius]

I suggest that the free trial is spent shifting through jobs and races...I'm pretty indecisive myself so that should work..

[Pteryx]

Is this guide going to get some more attention, now that DNC's and SCH's roles as mains and usefulness as subs are clearer?

Some points, both related to the above and to other aspects of the early parts of the guide:

• SCH gains heals and most Protect/Shell spells at the same rate as PLD. As such, it's typically not the best choice as a healer early on. At 40, however, it becomes the best status healer in the game, as well as the best crowd controller and a competitive buffer depending on the sub chosen.
• SCH is a good nuker, particularly at 20+ with a BLM subjob (or 40+ with a RDM subjob). While BLM is best at dealing damage in a short time, SCH is better at dealing damage over the long run.
• For SCH, I recommend /BLM as a "minimal" sub, /RDM as an additional party sub, and /WHM as a special-purpose sub (since all SCH really gets from /WHM now is the ability to cast status heals regardless of Art).
• For SCH, there are two trial levels to consider. By level 20, you have Regen, Cure II, and can get Magic Attack Bonus I from /BLM; thus, you can be effective as both a healer and a nuker, and can see if you'll like the climb to 40. 40 is another good level at which to make a judgement call, as that's when SCH gets its job-defining strategems Accession and Manifestation.
• DNC is a very handy solo subjob for most melee-oriented jobs. As for party usage, it could be useful to SAM (to apply their extra TP to healing the party when good healers are scarce), WAR (when tanking, to self-heal), PLD (at 40+ as a WAR alternative), and NIN (at 40+, even better than for PLD). It's also become the preferred solo sub for BST and PUP. (I've heard of PUP/DNC working well in parties too, but don't know the details.)
• SCH is a good sub for WHM, BLM, RDM, and SMN. It's additionally an alternative to /WHM for BLU. It would probably work nicely for DRG in the sorts of situations where it uses other mage subs, as well.
• Why is BLM/RDM considered "specialty"? On Midgard these days even a BLM in a full party, traditional or manaburn, is completely expected to sub RDM over WHM. If you sub WHM instead, people assume that you "must love healing" (to my healing-averse BLM friend's great chagrin, since he lacks /RDM).
• Subjob options notable for their absence aside from the WotG ones: THF/RNG (accuracy, Wide Scan for pulling); RDM/PLD (specialty, a nice solo sub); RDM/BLU (specialty, also primarily another take on soloing, works because physical spells rely a lot on main weapon skill), COR/BRD (specialty, makes a good buffing specialist, particularly for mages in endgame).

[Lunaryn]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

• Subjob options notable for their absence aside from the WotG ones: THF/RNG (accuracy, Wide Scan for pulling); RDM/PLD (specialty, a nice solo sub); RDM/BLU (specialty, also primarily another take on soloing, works because physical spells rely a lot on main weapon skill), COR/BRD (specialty, makes a good buffing specialist, particularly for mages in endgame).

It's probably worth mentioning WAR/RNG (alternate minimal, Accuracy Bonus at 20, Wide Scan for pulling, Ranged WS for extra SC options). I had some pretty good luck with this combo in XP (for various reasons I didn't want to mess with MNK), and a WAR/RNG with xbow and axe+shield gives you a wide range of SC options for parties willing to use them (I'm probably going to get "how dare you not support the party with Shield Break" responses to this...).

It should go without saying that if you're going to use this you should bring a crossbow and bolts, and keep your Marksmanship skilled.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

Subjob options notable for their absence aside from the WotG ones: THF/RNG (accuracy, Wide Scan for pulling); RDM/PLD (specialty, a nice solo sub); RDM/BLU (specialty, also primarily another take on soloing, works because physical spells rely a lot on main weapon skill), COR/BRD (specialty, makes a good buffing specialist, particularly for mages in endgame).

Wide Scan isn't really a pulling tool, being familar with the zone you're pulling in is vastly more helpful. Additionally, while Wide Scan is nice for checking around for NMs, its no garuntee you'll claim it first since you can't control your character and use the map function at the same time.

And if I've said this once, I've said it a million times, /BRD just for Ballad - on any job, at any time - is a joke, especially now with what /SCH's Sublimation there for mage jobs at 70+.

[MPbot][No thanks.]

You can tell me more MP can't hurt, but then, I can tell you I didn't spend millions on a job just to stand there completely defenseless and buff others. Its honestly not my problem if a BLM doesn't know how to manage MP, if they can't manage with Evoker's, thier refresh gear, sanction/sigil Refesh and +hMP build, there is nothing Ballad is going to do to help them except compensate for a poor BLM.

COR/WHM, /RDM or /BLU would be more useful than COR/BRD at endgame and for all situations but HNMs, /DNC would be even more useful. A COR/DNC in a mage PT can still benefit the other side of the alliance with Steps. If there's room, put a DRK or BLU in that PT and they can get the benefit of Evoker's and Aspir Samba. If a DNC main happens to be in another part of the Alliance, you can take over the first two steps and they can land Stutter Step to lower magic defense, aiding the mages further.

So as nice as more MP is, there are a lot better subjob options to play COR at endgame. I'd rather benefit both sides of the team than just one and /DNC lets me do that. Additionally, it grants survivability /BRD can't.

[IfritnoItazura]

Been meaning to give this guide another substantial revision, especially with all the changes to SCH and testimonials on DNC and /DNC. Thanks for the reminder; will try to get the changes in within a week or so.

(While I appreciate all constructive suggestions, keep in mind it is my guide, so will express and imply my peculiar opinions, tastes, and views. ^_^; )

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Lunaryn

and a WAR/RNG with xbow and axe+shield gives you a wide range of SC options for parties willing to use them (I'm probably going to get "how dare you not support the party with Shield Break" responses to this...).

I'd still use Great Axe any day over axe pre-55. Shield Break + Acid Bolts = win