[Amele]

(skippping parts I didn't feel a need to comment on, since I pretty much agree/accept your comments).

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I've thought about this, but there are just too many DD's, and I didn't want to get into the argument with anyone (even myself) about which DD's are the "true tier 1" DD's.

yeah, it might be simpler not to put any up arrows at all, although I wanted to distinguish that drg, drk, mnk, sam, rng, blm, war, thf, (the jobs that 'only' DD- I may have missed one) are superior DD to ninja, paladin, and summoner (in exp). I'd propose an up arrow next to all the jobs that have a primary role of "DD" whether they provide additional support or not. I agree it'd be a bad idea to try and 'tier' the melee, since it usually devolves into what gear you're willing to provide each job.

Not exactly, depending on the NIN's setup. NIN/RNG can be a pretty impressive range attacker once Juji Shuriken is available, and NIN40-60 is a nuker second to none with /RDM and /BLM. Haven't really investigated post Lv.60 NIN's DD potential, but my feeling that it's there.

yeah, I was making the assumption the nin would be nin/war. given the 'alternative' subs, I could see claiming a full rating for ninja

I haven't been very impressed with MNK tanking, preferring even PUP over them--at least PUP's bring their own cure bot. MNK's tanking performance seems to be strongly dependent on its extremely hard to cap Guard skill. I'm not sure if Counterstance is suitable for tanking anything above Even Match, and Utsusemi tanking isn't viable until Lv.74, isn't it?
I guess I can add MNK to tanking; it is doably on VT and lower, but I had a really bad experience with MNK tanking in Gustav Tunnel. (MNK x2 sharing tanking.) Seems like MNK tanking is easy to mess up.
BTW, I tried MNK/WAR tanking myself, but even with all the defense and VIT gear gathered up just for the purpose, I was an MP sink fighting Yhoator Mandragora on defense food. Definitely had no chance against Goblins.

I did chapters 7 and 8 of CoP with a pair of mnk tanks (sometimes /war, sometimes /nin) and used to duo the greater birds in Tavnazia mnk/nin+whm. it's very dependent on maximising counter and evasion.

it's not very good after dunes and before counterstance though (CS being.. 45? I think) and afterward is highly dependent on guard skill.

WHM, maybe, but not BLM. That said, the difference between the number of unsolicited invites I've received between on popular jobs (PLD, NIN, and RDM) vs. WHM, is pretty large. I don't think my BLM gotten more than one unsolicited invite in 56 levels.
For now, I think it suffices to call WHM's invite rate "average", and DD's "often lower".

pre-AU I had to go anon to avoid getting unsolicited invites, even at 75. (you're in the whitemage slump atm, if you keep your character tag up to date) post AU I get an invite within ten~ minutes of flagging up, without fail. I realize this is going to vary from server to server, but I could hardly call this rate 'average' (bards, redmages, relic wielding melee, adaberk+ridill wars are the only things that come to mind with notably faster invite rates than ~10 minutes).

Er, I don't know. I don't see many WAR/SAM's running around. Are they popular now in end game? Do HNM LS leaders ask WAR's to come as /SAM frequently?

no and no, in both cases. but this has more to do with how broken rampage and ridill are than the utility of war/sam: when we have a war who wants to use a great axe come to an event, he is generally expected to come /sam.

Agree /RDM should be listed, but it's really for Fast Cast for speedy cures during special fights. (Most parties have a support role job with dispel of some sort.)

4 DD + brd + whm -> whm will want /rdm for dispel at several AU camps (trolls is the most obvious) because bard doesn't have time to dispel every mob that gets pulled due to long recast on finale and/or needing to stage pull.

fast cast is an 'ok' reason, but with 37% casting reduction available to a whitemage already (excluding marduk's stuff) it's hardly a compelling reason to level the sub. although particular reasons aren't as important in a fast overview, since we seem to agree it should be included either way.

(The BLM75 in my LS made fun of my Quake purchase, and even I elected to skip Stonega II myself.)

I make fun of blm's who purchase -any- ancient magic in the days of AMII. although I could see an argument for Freeze and Burst still. I agree they're not as useful but they're not any more or less efficient (assuming neutral mob resistance) than any of the other nukes on the way up.

I'm a bit away from Lv.75, but do BLM's really use /NIN that much? Seems like /RDM and /WHM are much more popular.

it's about as common as pld/whm as far as I can tell. (/rdm and /whm are *much* more popular) has some merit in situations where you might not have a 'real' tank - low man limbus/salvage/ some assaults / etc.

[qoute]As for enfeebling magic of BLM(C+) and WHM(C), I don't think much of them, especially after RDM gets Warlock's Tabard. Dia II and Sleepga II aside, they are mostly good for second chance enfeeb to catch something the RDM missed.[/quote]

I can't speak too much for blm, but whitemage can hit 298 enfeebling if they take the time to collect all the gear (260~ before merits might be a better goal) and merit it to 8/8. this is enough to handle main enfeebling for all but the beefiest of NM's (since this is A+ skill equivalent for something like level 78 iirc).

Which (main) job are you talking about?

my mistake, was dark knight. (dual axe rampage, etc).

The "minimal" is what works up to the suggested level for trying out a job. /DRG is fine (it's great, actually) up to Lv.30, but not suitable for getting to Lv.75.

ah, ok, yeah. total agreement with placements then.

This is difficult. I know DRG/RDM is the better cure tank, but it lacks the -na spells which healers are expected to have. For soloing, -na spells can make a huge difference as well.

drg/rdm makes a much better support healer than drg/whm, which is why I suggested making a note, although anyone who is serious about the job will find that out from the dragoon specific forums probably, so maybe not as necessary.

Heh. I didn't know melee is a real word. Also didn't know that solo is a verb--thought it was adverb or adjective.

solo is a verb, Melee as a noun is not, hence why I capitalized it

the revision looks good

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

drg/rdm makes a much better support healer than drg/whm, which is why I suggested making a note, although anyone who is serious about the job will find that out from the dragoon specific forums probably, so maybe not as necessary.

Explain, please.

No status cures.
No divine seal.
Poison for 5 MP under /RDM
Dia for 7 MP under /WHM.
Power Attack for 5 MP under /BLU.

Power Attack casts more quickly than both, same cost as Poison, making Power Attack easily the best Healing Breath trigger in the game.

/BLU notwithstanding, /WHM is the better healer sub unless BLU and RDM got -na spells when we weren't looking.

[hongman]

I still feel /NIN should be there. Its a large part of a lot of RDM's lives.

Not so sure about the "Avesta imitators" bit, kinda lame.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Explain, please.
No status cures.
No divine seal.
Poison for 5 MP under /RDM
Dia for 7 MP under /WHM.
Power Attack for 5 MP under /BLU.
Power Attack casts more quickly than both, same cost as Poison, making Power Attack easily the best Healing Breath trigger in the game.
/BLU notwithstanding, /WHM is the better healer sub unless BLU and RDM got -na spells when we weren't looking.

dispel. which rarely gets resisted. hence the phrase 'support' healer.
each point of mp is also significant when discussing ethereal dragoons.

/rdm also gives fast cast, so I doubt that power attack is in fact the fastest spell.

[Nuriko]

I was just wondering if there was a reason not to list BLU as tank as well ... it can be fairly effective as one, I think, given Cocoon's +50% def boost.

[Vyuru]

drg/rdm makes a much better support healer than drg/whm

Explain, please.

No status cures.
No divine seal.

Hm, how do you qoute someone's name in there?

We'll assume a mithra lvl 75 drg/whm and drg/rdm, stats swiped from this site:

http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/

Anywho, most likely you will be using barelement spells on yourself to trigger Healing Breath (HB), so we'll say rdm is 6 mp. Whm will probably be using Dia and Poisona as the cheapest and fastest casting spells, you could use Cure, but that takes a little longer to cast and you may risk putting someone over the HB threshold and negating your HB.

Rdm has access to lots of barelement spells that have a .5 second casting time for 6 mp.

Whm will use Dia (7mp) and probably Poisona (8mp) there are other spells they could use for less mp, say Paralyze, but that takes too long to cast, and as such will not be considered.

Now then, stats for lvl 75 drg/rdm:

Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA

75 1195 118 65 70 62 67 59 59 60

Stats for lvl 75 drg/whm:

Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA

75 1177 137 65 68 63 67 56 61 62

Stats for a lvl 75 drg/blu

Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA

75 1195 118 64 69 62 67 56 56 59

Drg/rdm has 118mp = drg/blu

Drg/whm has 137mp

Assuming that they will be alternating between two spells (barfire/baraero for /rdm, dia/poisona for /whm)

Rdm: 118/6= 19 Healing Breaths, rounded down

Whm: Alternating Dia/Poisona nets /whm 17 Healing Breaths

If they only needed to use one spell, rdm would use Poison, and whm would use Dia, in which case:

Rdm: 118/5 = 23 Healing Breaths

Whm: 137/7 = 19 Healing Breaths

Whm has more MP, but Rdm has more MP efficient spells to cast, and pulls ahead of whm in the Healing Breath department.

Now, as far as useful spells go.....

Curaga caps at 90hp and Curaga II caps at 180hp correct?

Curaga costs 60 mp to cast, Curaga II costs 120mp. Add in Divine Seal and Curaga gives back 180hp for 60mp and Curaga II gives back 360hp for 120mp.

Now 120mp at lvl 75 is about 87% of your base mana pool, are you really going to be tossing those out there? Or will you be using your MP for Healing Breaths? Pair a whm with a drg/mage, have the whm use highest lvl Regen and focus on main tank healing while drg uses Healing Breaths to keep the hp up for the other party members and the tank, it's pretty powerful. Dragoon/Blue Mage has the same mp as /rdm, and it has more spells that can be cast for 5mp, particularily Power Attack and Foot Kick. In the case of spamming HB spells /blue mage pulls ahead of /rdm, but in the case of being able to wait for recast timers, they are the same. Also, Red Mage's Barelement spells all are .5 second casting time, equal to Foot Kick and Power Attack's casting times. However Red Mage gains Fast Cast traits, which shorten the .5second casting time further so they actually cast faster than blue mage spells.

It's been awhile since I last soloed, but I think Lumiere's Healing Breaths were giving back 240ish hp, and I'm at lvl 69 dragoon.

The status ~na spell line you should not be casting. Inefficient for Healing Breaths, your WS will take care of some of them, and the whm can handle those. A drg/mage's job in a exp party 90% of the time is to provide backup healing, you do not do that with spells that can cost up to 60 mp, although you'd probably be using Paralyna (12mp) or Poisona (8mp) more often than not, but that is using up a significant portion of your mp, and some of these have casting times of 3 seconds. Keep in mind it takes your wyvern an additional 3 seconds to ready and use Healing Breath, which makes the delay 6 seconds or slightly longer from the start of your casting to the use of Healing Breath.

So all and all, I think rdm is still the best exp party support job for backup healing.


EDIT:

Forgot to add:

Using Divine Seal + Curaga II as an example.

DS+Curaga II for 360hp(6 party members) = 2,160 hp for 120 mp and 4.75 second casting time

120mp/6 = 20 Healing Breaths(240hp/HB) = 4,800 hp for 120 mp and about 3.5 seconds/HB about 70 seconds total

If using Poison as the trigger you can get another 4 Healing Breaths and an extra 800hp for a total of 5,600hp back, which is more than double what DS+Curaga II does to a FULL party. In all honesty I am being very generous with DS+CuragaII because not all members may be in range, or they may not have lost 360hp, in which case the total for DS+Curaga II is even lower.

Healing Breaths will always hit the person that has the lowest % health, unless they are out of spell casting range, since a drg/mage will be engaged with the mob and will be next to all the melees, and the mages tend to stand within spell casting range this is an unlikely event.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Amele

dispel. which rarely gets resisted. hence the phrase 'support' healer.
each point of mp is also significant when discussing ethereal dragoons.

That's pretty weak support considering other jobs would probably be present to dispel, possibly without even spending MP. Main healers, on the other hand, generally appreciate people covering status removal spells so they can reserve their MP for curing. You're not doing a RDM any favors by doing Dispel, but a RDM main healer you'd be doing a world of good by covering Erase and -na spells for them.

/rdm also gives fast cast, so I doubt that power attack is in fact the fastest spell.

Power attack is faster than Poison. Better yet, colibri can't reflect it.

[Vyuru]

Quote:
/rdm also gives fast cast, so I doubt that power attack is in fact the fastest spell.

Power attack is faster than Poison. Better yet, colibri can't reflect it.

You may have missed my post above, but:

Fast Cast + Baraero is faster than Power Attack, and Colibri can't reflect that either.

but a RDM main healer you'd be doing a world of good by covering Erase and -na spells for them.

That takes up far too much of a drg/mage's mp pool to actually be feasible, we have a very limited mana pool. The melee may just have to sit there with the status effects until they wear off if that is the case, well, exception being DS+Erase, but that is once every 10 minutes, so that's kinda meh.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

That takes up far too much of a drg/mage's mp pool to actually be feasible,

BRDs do it, why can't DRGs? BRDs are actually busier than DRGs in EXP PTs and have roughly just as much MP to play with under /WHM to remove status cures with. A refreshed DRG could easily cover -na and erase like a good BRD/WHM would.

Perhaps we never learned how to /WHM effectively?

Still not convinced /RDM is better.

Enspells COST more than poison, dia or power attack and are not faster in casting than any of them. That's just using MP poorly for DRG.

A healer DRG shouldn't need a lot of MP to do anything, nor should they be blowing lots of it to cure people.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

BRDs do it, why can't DRGs? BRDs are actually busier than DRGs in EXP PTs and have roughly just as much MP to play with under /WHM to remove status cures with. A refreshed DRG could easily cover -na and erase like a good BRD/WHM would.
Perhaps we never learned how to /WHM effectively?
Still not convinced /RDM is better.
Enspells COST more than poison, dia or power attack and are not faster in casting than any of them. That's just using MP poorly for DRG.
A healer DRG shouldn't need a lot of MP to do anything, nor should they be blowing lots of it to cure people.

uh hi2u ballad II >.>

bards have alot more mp to play with since you can't exactly put ballad on drg/mage.

also, who said anything about enspells?

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Deeke

For the sake of brainstorming though, how about a section within each Job detailing typical uses and demand (or lack of) outside of Exp-PT situtations.

I do mention exp party popularity (or lack of) in the By Annoyance/Expense section. Typical use is described in the first paragraph for each job--that's where I try to give reader a very rough impression of what playing the job is like.

While each job can be better described, there's just no room for that. As is, my guide is already way too long.

Originally Posted by Deeke

Mentioning for example that SMNs are generally highly sought-after at 30+ for Promies, NINs that make it to 40 have a wealth of BCNM options open to them, etc. etc.

Keep in mind that I don't play every job (e.g. SMN Lv.1!). That kind guidance would better from career job players who keeps a close tab on his/her community.

Originally Posted by Deeke

Not a great suggestion but, egh.. I wanted to try.

Heh. They are not bad suggestions per se, but too detailed for my guide, and the last one is outside of my expertise.

Originally Posted by Amele

I did chapters 7 and 8 of CoP with a pair of mnk tanks (sometimes /war, sometimes /nin) and used to duo the greater birds in Tavnazia mnk/nin+whm. it's very dependent on maximising counter and evasion.

Hmm. My criteria for tanking is able to tank Lv.10-72 in exp party, and reasonably able to tank most NM's and special fights at the same levels other tanks are able to do. To be a Tank(↘), a Job doesn't have to be the most efficient, but the player's party must be given a reasonable chance at chaining at least VT's, and special fights shouldn't be a dice toss with "lesser" tanks.

I don't see MNK's doing that. Maybe they are able, but I want to hear from MNK tanks explaining how's and why's before I add them as Tanks.


Re: White Mage's invite rate

Support, Tanks = fast invites.
Most DD's = slower invites.
Pet jobs = very slow invites.

White Mage is between "fast invites" and "slower invites", so it gets stuck with "average" label from me. It's not a bad label, really.


Re: Stone/Stonega spells

Originally Posted by Amele

I agree they're not as useful but they're not any more or less efficient (assuming neutral mob resistance) than any of the other nukes on the way up.

Well, I didn't say "Don't get those"; it's more like "I'm not entirely sure if they are good values." Once Stonega II comes down in price, maybe I'll remove that line.


Re: BLM using /NIN

Originally Posted by Amele

it's about as common as pld/whm as far as I can tell. (/rdm and /whm are *much* more popular) has some merit in situations where you might not have a 'real' tank - low man limbus/salvage/ some assaults / etc.

Let me clarify why I included /WHM in parenthesis; PLD is sometimes called upon to be a healer (I've seen this in JP parties), and /WHM is the best support job for that role. By no means does /WHM compare with /WAR and /NIN.

There's no similar situation for BLM with /NIN, as far as I can tell, though it is good for a BLM with plenty of MP and hMP, and can be used to lower resistance for nukes using the Ichi line of elemental Ninjutsu enfeebs.

Originally Posted by Amele

I can't speak too much for blm, but whitemage can hit 298 enfeebling if they take the time to collect all the gear (260~ before merits might be a better goal) and merit it to 8/8. this is enough to handle main enfeebling for all but the beefiest of NM's (since this is A+ skill equivalent for something like level 78 iirc).

Not saying WHM can't; it's just not expected of them to be major enfeebler. It's not needed, either, with the number of RDM75's I see running around. BTW, the role targed is support, not enfeebler.

Correction: I did have WHM as Support(↘). Since BLM is actually higher in Enfeebling (C+ vs. C), I'll add BLM.

Originally Posted by Amele

drg/rdm makes a much better support healer than drg/whm, which is why I suggested making a note, although anyone who is serious about the job will find that out from the dragoon specific forums probably, so maybe not as necessary.

I really do like DRG/RDM, but it is just a more specialized version of DRG/WHM for a niche role which isn't greatly in demand outside of solo'ing and small parties. =/ Despite the length of the guide, I very to avoid the "everything and the kitchen sink" attitude, so /WHM with its more versatile arsenal stays in the guide, but no /RDM. Sorry...

Originally Posted by Nuriko

I was just wondering if there was a reason not to list BLU as tank as well ... it can be fairly effective as one, I think, given Cocoon's +50% def boost.

I've seen BLU tanking well in Qufim levels. Not very sure about its enmity capability before Bludgeon (Lv.18), though. If there's reasonable testimony reporting BLU's have tanked well for the majority of Lv.10 to Lv.72 interval (VT is ok, IT would be nice), I'll add it to the first post. (I do mention it can be a low level tank in its own description, I think.)

Originally Posted by hongman

I still feel /NIN should be there. Its a large part of a lot of RDM's lives.

I've clarified what "Main Support Job(s)" means:

Note that Jobs aren't very distinctive from one another at lower levels; many melee jobs especially suffer from that. That's why a "Suggested Lv." is given for each Job--how far to take a Job in order to get a feel for how it would be like later on.

The "Minimal Support Job(s)" are just the subjob(s) needed to reach the suggested levels; if taking the job to 75, likely others would be needed. (The major support job for each is listed under "Main Support Job(s)", and they are needed for exp'ing and/or end game.)

Again, for RDM, /NIN isn't needed for leveling. It's not wanted for group work. It's not even needed for most solo work. (BTW, My sister and I both use RDM/BLM for most solo'ing. Do I use RDM/NIN at all? Sure; did a lot of Dagger skill up on that last week--without using Utsusemi--in no way was I depedent on what /NIN provided--just wanted Dual Wield for faster skill up.)

No argument that RDM/NIN is a powerful combination for doing certain things--sometimes, the only combination. It can be a "large part" of one's RDM career--for those who want to challenge themselves going toe-to-toe against monsters as tanks or solo. But, is that really what most RDM do on a regular basis? Or, is what they try to accomplish can be done having someone else tank? Or solo by kite/sleep and nuke?

Another way of looking at it: the Red Mage forum is one of the most popular job forum here, and I only have two people who think /NIN should be included so far.

If the number of 'yay' outnumber 'nay' by five, I'll add RDM/NIN. How's that?

Originally Posted by hongman

Not so sure about the "Avesta imitators" bit, kinda lame.

It's a joke? I made fun of myself for saying it's not a "major support job" (under my own definition), yet I have it? Obviously I'm no Avesta... >_>;

I really should get out of the comedy business.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Hm, how do you qoute someone's name in there?

Hit the "Quote" button under someone's post, then look at the stuff in the [quote= ... ] tag.

[Vyuru]

[quote]Hit the "Quote" button under someone's post, then look at the stuff in the

Originally Posted by ...

tag.

Ahh thankee

I do mention exp party popularity (or lack of) in the By Annoyance/Expense section. Typical use is described in the first paragraph for each job--that's where I try to give reader a very rough impression of what playing the job is like.

I think that you should stick with that. This guide is a very good kind of general description of each job and what to expect, new players can read this and then move on to the actual job forums for more detailed information.

Reading over your faq, just a few things I'd like to mention:

Ninja vs. Paladin?
Which is better? The answer is: Yes.

You might want to mention that paladins typically have a more solid grasp on hate than ninjas, but that can be rather dependant on the party setup, players, and a bit of luck. I do think in general, with two players of equal skill and all that, the pld will have better, or perhaps I should say more solid hate control on the IT mobs for a very long portion of the game. VT mobs seem to be more where ninjas really seem to shine, and yes I realise I'm painting with a broad brush here.

Warrior section:

You might want to bring up war/drg from levels 20-29. You pick up Attack Bonus, and Jump at level 20 war/drg. Warriors get Attack Bonus at level 30, so that is 10 levels early, and Jump is nice for damage/TP gain. This is assuming that you are not tanking though. For job traits/abilities I think /drg is probably the best for warrior in that level range.

Dragoon section:

I'd extend the tanking through damage and Provoke from Lv.10 to Lv.30, the Platoon Lance is just an incredibly powerful weapon for it's level, that you actually may have to be a bit carefull with unless you want to be tanking.

I'd also add /sam into the Main Support Job section for Dragoon. I've been able to exp a little more as drg/sam and while I haven't run any parsers, I must say that my impression is that my damage output is higher than /war, or at least equal to it, and I do not draw hate anywhere near as much anymore. When I do, there is always Third Eye and very soon to be Seigan+Third Eye. Only problem is that I don't see this combo working until at least level 50 when you get Hasso, which I think I would take over Berserk and Double Attack because that should be enough +accuracy, with other gear of course, to let you eat meat dishes, which I think is preferable to using Berserk.

Funny thing, I just now realised that this wasn't a continuation of the original "Which Job Should I Play" thread ^.^;

Very nice guide IfritnoItazura ^^

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Warrior section:

You might want to bring up war/drg from levels 20-29. You pick up Attack Bonus, and Jump at level 20 war/drg. Warriors get Attack Bonus at level 30, so that is 10 levels early, and Jump is nice for damage/TP gain. This is assuming that you are not tanking though. For job traits/abilities I think /drg is probably the best for warrior in that level range.

While /DRG is great for DD purposes, WAR is very often expected to tank in those levels. Plus, the suggest trial level is 25, so if I list /DRG in the "Minimal" part, it would only be good for 5 levels. ^_^;

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Dragoon section:

I'd extend the tanking through damage and Provoke from Lv.10 to Lv.30, the Platoon Lance is just an incredibly powerful weapon for it's level, that you actually may have to be a bit carefull with unless you want to be tanking.

While I don't know the exact cut off, tanking on damage and Provoke alone gets dicy somewhere in the Qufim levels. (The trend actually starts arond Lv.15, when WAR's get Berserk, DRK's get Last Resort, and THF's get Sneak Attack.) Smartly geared THF's spike damage is just too much to handle, and DRG's armor will start to fall behind WAR's and PLD's starting with Chainmail set (Lv.24), and further behind with the Eisen/Kampf set (Lv.29).

I do have fond memory of that Platoon Lance, though. I think I even kept it, just in case I ever need to help a LS newbie with the Dragon (City Mission) fight. ^___________^

Originally Posted by Vyuru

I'd also add /sam into the Main Support Job section for Dragoon. I've been able to exp a little more as drg/sam and while I haven't run any parsers, I must say that my impression is that my damage output is higher than /war, or at least equal to it, and I do not draw hate anywhere near as much anymore. When I do, there is always Third Eye and very soon to be Seigan+Third Eye. Only problem is that I don't see this combo working until at least level 50 when you get Hasso, which I think I would take over Berserk and Double Attack because that should be enough +accuracy, with other gear of course, to let you eat meat dishes, which I think is preferable to using Berserk.

While I don't see /SAM as "you have to have it!" for Hasso or even Seigan, I do remember reading DRG's sulking about being stuck with "swap in for Spirit Within) for HNM and/or other end game situations. >_>; While that was way before the change to DRG two-hour ability, I'll add /SAM.

(Do run some parsers, especially if you have a static party. It'd be good to have quantitative evidence on which is the better general DD support job for DRG's.)

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Funny thing, I just now realised that this wasn't a continuation of the original "Which Job Should I Play" thread ^.^;

Believe it or not, I'm so wordy, I ran out of room in the original posts--the site's software just won't let me add more letters.

._.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Amele

uh hi2u ballad II >.>

bards have alot more mp to play with since you can't exactly put ballad on drg/mage.

BRDs only have Ballad on themselves half the time and, again, are generally busier than DRGs, if there's an MP heavy frontline (and I seldom see a DRG w/o a PLD far off) the frontline can easily get Ballad/Evoker's. You're not generally going to have BRD or COR+ RDM in the same PT, so the BRD or COR has to refresh the frontline, they have no choice if there's no RDM. Its actually easier for a COR since they can occasionally double up for the frontline if the backline gets a 5 (pretty common).

So I gotta call BS on this statement, because seldom do I ever leave a BLU, PLD, DRG/Mage or DRK hanging. BRD can do that same.

Oh, and that whole sanction thing. If you're going /mage, kinda best you also bring your own refresh to begin with. And seasoned mage, DRK, BLU or PLD would already know this.

also, who said anything about enspells?

I misread, but even then Bar-spells are a waste of MP for the sake of a fast trigger.