[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Icemage

The farthest I've gone to is going to bat for newer members who haven't yet received anything significant; often times I would pass on gear in deference to newer members to make them feel welcome, and encouraged others to do so as well.

Ya, I've done this too. It's rather selfish of me though because it makes me happy to see someone get something and be excited about it. I often go to bat for the newer members that have been putting forth the effort and deserve a nice goodie. One of my fondest memories was when an Ebody finally dropped and I went to bat for another member over the older member that the leader wanted. He had not been to events in months and the first event back he expected to get it if it dropped and over more dedicated members. The older member didn't get it but I was told in /t's that next claim if it dropped that the flakey older member WAS getting it regardless.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I bent over backwards, went to bat for people in LSes where you got out what you put in, did merited with our PLDs and BLMs to ensure their EXP was capped out and that they got merits, even helped people with missions. Got very little out of my endgame shells compared to what I put in.

And for that, I get backstabbed.

With the exception of my core friends on Odin and Titan, along with two German players, just about everyone else has used and cast me aside. That's OK, though, because that's when I stop going to bat for people or going out of my way to improve the situations of an LS. That's when my help becomes more exclusive and I may choose to skip out on events so I can do something offline, even though I really could have played.

So I want a system that isn't going to follow this naive concept that players can be totally trusted. I don't want a system that rewards flakes that don't attend or want to claim something so they can "retire" that job. How many Duelist's Chapeaus have gone down the drain on that one? I don't want a system that forgets to count the attendance of various members. I don't want a system where loot priority is ever up for debate and the rules are made up as you go along.

An internal system will get around all these issues. The abuses to such a system would be limited and the consequences of poor leadership would be clear. If they want to make the guild a social thing, have a feature where you can disable the DKP. If big events are what the players want, have the feature enabled.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

So I want a system that isn't going to follow this naive concept that players can be totally trusted.

Uh, what? The current system follows the concept that members should keep an eye on the leadership and leave the shell if they are getting screwed. What does that have to do with "players can be totally trusted"?

Someone has to have the power to set rules or there won't be any rules. Someone has to have the power to give out points or there won't be any points.

I don't want a system that rewards flakes that don't attend or want to claim something so they can "retire" that job. How many Duelist's Chapeaus have gone down the drain on that one? I don't want a system that forgets to count the attendance of various members. I don't want a system where loot priority is ever up for debate and the rules are made up as you go along.

An internal system will get around all these issues. The abuses to such a system would be limited and the consequences of poor leadership would be clear. If they want to make the guild a social thing, have a feature where you can disable the DKP. If big events are what the players want, have the feature enabled.

How will an internal system get around any of these issues? Forbid a shell from ever changing its rules without breaking the shell? Or have one set of rules that all shells have to follow whether they like it or not? Count attendance automatically? (How does the system count late arrivers, people who d/c before the end, people who log off after the boss on weeknight Dynamis runs because they have work/school the next day?) Which events count attendance at all, and how much? Do points from Dynamis transfer to Limbus and vice versa if the same shell does both? How much does each drop cost, and can those costs ever be changed, and if so, by who? Does a player who leaves for a long time and then comes back lose any points, and if so, how many? Can a player be penalized in points for behavior that harms the run, such as going AFK, aggroing the wrong mobs, waking avatars or other slept mobs, etc.?

Different shells are going to want to answer these questions in different ways. A built in system is going to be too inflexible to allow that variety, or so flexible it can be abused to do all the things you described. Don't put your trust in a computer to protect you from abuse of power. Only the membership holding the leaders accountable can do that (or finding more honest leaders, but see my earlier point about dishonest people drawn to opportunities for dishonesty).

Real shells change their rules and adjust people's point totals for legitimate reasons as well as illegitimate ones. Short of having GMs review all rule change attempts (totally impractical and they don't have the context anyway), a built-in system can't distinguish between the two.


There's one system that the *current* system does implement, namely, "Anyone who is there (and for certain content, in the main alliance) may lot anything that drops; people who are not there get nothing". Whatever else you can say about this system, it certainly rewards attendance (except for people who are there for most of a fight, but d/c before the kill, a situation a built-in point system would have to address somehow). Most people aren't happy with that system because the same person can get lucky or unlucky repeatedly, and greedy jerks can lot things they have no actual use for, and people who show up but lose the lot or don't see the drop they wanted or didn't even want anything from that run get no preference on future runs. So they make up their own rules and penalize people who break the made-up rules by using the system's ability to lot when the LS's additional rules say they shouldn't. How would a more elaborate built-in system change that? Inevitably someone is going to believe that the system is wrong about something, and adjust point totals or override the system's lotting priority rules and tell people not to lot because they think their method is fairer than the built-in one.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Karinya

There's one system that the *current* system does implement, namely, "Anyone who is there (and for certain content, in the main alliance) may lot anything that drops; people who are not there get nothing". Whatever else you can say about this system, it certainly rewards attendance (except for people who are there for most of a fight, but d/c before the kill, a situation a built-in point system would have to address somehow).

There are items that are not rare/ex that can be held and awarded later to people that weren't even there for the event.

[Syno23]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I bent over backwards, went to bat for people in LSes where you got out what you put in, did merited with our PLDs and BLMs to ensure their EXP was capped out and that they got merits, even helped people with missions. Got very little out of my endgame shells compared to what I put in.

And for that, I get backstabbed.

With the exception of my core friends on Odin and Titan, along with two German players, just about everyone else has used and cast me aside. That's OK, though, because that's when I stop going to bat for people or going out of my way to improve the situations of an LS. That's when my help becomes more exclusive and I may choose to skip out on events so I can do something offline, even though I really could have played.

So I want a system that isn't going to follow this naive concept that players can be totally trusted. I don't want a system that rewards flakes that don't attend or want to claim something so they can "retire" that job. How many Duelist's Chapeaus have gone down the drain on that one? I don't want a system that forgets to count the attendance of various members. I don't want a system where loot priority is ever up for debate and the rules are made up as you go along.

An internal system will get around all these issues. The abuses to such a system would be limited and the consequences of poor leadership would be clear. If they want to make the guild a social thing, have a feature where you can disable the DKP. If big events are what the players want, have the feature enabled.

I agree, you put a lot into a linkshell, but barely get a little out of it. I suppose it could be just luck, but at the same time it could be the fact that you were helping new players.

But either way, I agree with the point that they need a new linkshell system in FFXIV. Hopefully one that those who put a lot of time into building it will get the most rewards while the flakes get nothing lol.

[Syno23]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to let you all know that we are still recruiting. I know many of the starter linkshells have declined and shutdown, but we are still here, 215 registered users strong and growing day by day.

For those who haven't seen our thread to check out our website and help us become a stronger community. With each passing day, we gain more talent and dexterity. Our members are filled with new and inspiring ideas. Rapture is becoming more of a success day by day....

If any of you are still interested you can check out our website at:

Rapture- A Final Fantasy XIV LinkShell

And, our forums at:

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