[DakAttack]

If you could find gear in Dynamis that isn't job specific you could reduce certain issues, such as lotting on gear for a job you're not currently playing, or isn't your 'main', or whatever. If the gear supported a multitude of jobs, rather than just one, you get it and now you've got it for several jobs. This wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help.

Blizz attempted to offer tokens that can be earned just by defeating a boss, and after collecting a vast amount you can trade them in for a piece of armor or weapon. It's a good idea, but it doesn't really fit well. Why is this boss dropping a token? Where'd he get it from, and why can I redeem the tokens he drops for something else he drops? Where'd they get that? These tokens are obviously some kind of currency, but why does only seem to be important for bosses and NPCs to have?

SE has, what I think I can call, secondary economies through the use of conquest points and the like. Your nation or some other organization is offering their gratitude for the work you've done by the way of points or credits that you can then use to redeem relevant armor and weapons. You can buy San d'Orian gear through San d'Oria, or their consulate, etc. It's something you can sort of see in WoW, like BG marks, but when it comes to end-game raiding they took it too far.

What I mean is, like, you know, whatever. Need before greed is a nice concept and all, but at the end of the day it feels good to work hard for something without seeing it slip right out of your grasp. Defeating bosses for epic loot is a great thrill, but players should still have access to something they can use to better themselves without relying heavily on the luck of the drop and the luck of the draw. I think point systems accomplish this very nicely.

[Raydeus]

I'd rather have gear that changed properties according to your main job. With active Augments specific to each job.

Now that would've been a great RMT armor set for the "scenarios" SE is selling.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Elwynn

All a point system really does is force each individual to quantify his own "need". Too much greed, and you have no points left. (Of course with a bad LS, too much greed by a toadie, and suddenly the rules start to change.)

I have never been in a point based ls so I can't comment on the abuses of that system. I can attest to the abuses of allowing sacs/leader to make the decision on who gets what. In every single shell I've been in, the shellholder gets the final say with the sacs just suggesting where they'd like the piece of equip to go. I've ALWAYS seen this system abused and on several occasions I was a sac and saw it from the "inside". (And eventually I'd see it from the other side again because when there was a discussion between leadership, I'd stick up for the little guy or stand up and say if something wasn't fair.) There were times that I might not have gotten along with a member but I knew that he/she was the person that should get the item so I didn't hold how I felt about them against them. Too often I'd see comments between leadership about "I just CAN'T give it to so and so, I can't stand them." This type of immaturity drives me bonkers and its common in endgame. If leadership makes the decisions on who gets what, kiss major ass with the sacs/leader, volunteer for extra stuff, try to exp with them, and just basically stuff your nose up their asses and you'll get more mediocore stuff than other people. But if you aren't a real life friend/relative or the boyfriend/girlfriend of the shellholder, you probably won't get any of the really good endgame gear for a very long time.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

I have never been in a point based ls so I can't comment on the abuses of that system. I can attest to the abuses of allowing sacs/leader to make the decision on who gets what. In every single shell I've been in, the shellholder gets the final say with the sacs just suggesting where they'd like the piece of equip to go. I've ALWAYS seen this system abused and on several occasions I was a sac and saw it from the "inside". (And eventually I'd see it from the other side again because when there was a discussion between leadership, I'd stick up for the little guy or stand up and say if something wasn't fair.) There were times that I might not have gotten along with a member but I knew that he/she was the person that should get the item so I didn't hold how I felt about them against them. Too often I'd see comments between leadership about "I just CAN'T give it to so and so, I can't stand them." This type of immaturity drives me bonkers and its common in endgame. If leadership makes the decisions on who gets what, kiss major ass with the sacs/leader, volunteer for extra stuff, try to exp with them, and just basically stuff your nose up their asses and you'll get more mediocore stuff than other people. But if you aren't a real life friend/relative or the boyfriend/girlfriend of the shellholder, you probably won't get any of the really good endgame gear for a very long time.

my only endgame LS I have ever been in, used a point system, and it was great, and very fare, the points where even kept on a webpage on the LS homepage, for us to see where we stood, compared to other members.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Icemage

The best endgame linkshells run on an honor system and abide by it, at least for the important gears (and as I mentioned above, no one in a good endgame LS should be sweating the small stuff, whether they get lots of it or very little).

I don't doubt a need based system will equip the LS better for what it wants to do, and do so faster when done right.

The trouble is, not every member agree on exactly what it is the LS ought to do, nor how exactly (to equip the people) to do it. I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

If an endgame LS evolved from long time stable group of friends, and rarely add new people, I can see that working out. Inevitably, though, you will have questions on who deserves which gear more/first. I think the formation of cliques (or "sub-grouping") is natural tendency of human beings, and most people cannot get away from favoritism completely.

Point system and other objective methods are the best way to reduce the influence personal feelings on loot distribution, and IMO is easier to get it working right than any need based system.

Points systems are just unnecessary bookkeeping and rarely are run fairly in any case; if people want to be jerks, they're going to be jerks no matter what method is used to decide who gets what.

I've been in many event groups in and out of my main LS with point systems. So far, I can't say any is/was run unfairly. They all share one characteristic: the points are updated regularly, and posted for all members to see so any error can be spotted and corrected.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

I know this well. I know 3 ls's that did this with me. First 2 got me whm equips and the 3rd blm equips. I really wanted to pimp out my rdm though since it is the job I love. (I must because I have multiple 75 rdms.) I did on occasion say that I would rather have X rdm equip instead of being awarded the current piece. Then members would encourage me to take the current piece and so on and I'd feel badly if I didn't so I would take it. I know it is partially my fault because I am too easy going at times but it was VERY disheartening to see the job that I love be neglected and another job that I hate (blm) be basically forced upon me. I never forced someone to outfit a job that they didn't want equips for when I was in leadership. In fact, I'm a firm believer in having someone pick the job they'd like to play and then actively recruit jobs that we are in need of instead of forcing people to play jobs they loathe.

Thats why I kind of don't understand the meaning of this thread. You need to know jobs and game dynamics before you can form an ls. If you don't, then you run into the issue of making people level jobs that they might not want to play in the long run. And that tends to ruin the shell in the long run and I'd rather join an ls with longevity than a flash in the pan.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I don't doubt a need based system will equip the LS better for what it wants to do, and do so faster when done right.

The trouble is, not every member agree on exactly what it is the LS ought to do, nor how exactly (to equip the people) to do it. I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

If an endgame LS evolved from long time stable group of friends, and rarely add new people, I can see that working out. Inevitably, though, you will have questions on who deserves which gear more/first. I think the formation of cliques (or "sub-grouping") is natural tendency of human beings, and most people cannot get away from favoritism completely.

I suppose I should qualify things by saying that not everyone is going to agree who "needs" a particular item more urgently than anyone else, but from personal experience and from discussions I've had with people from other linkshells/other servers, the really top-end linkshells all run pretty much the same way; everyone knows pretty much what everyone else wants. My LS keeps track of it with a constantly updated wishlist, and allows wishlisting for gear that is not the jobs you bring most often to events, with the only stipulation being that any job you wish to get endgame gear for be at least at level 70+. Those desires are factored in when making decisions about who gets what gears. Japanese shells in particular have a strong tendency to run this way, and I think many of the best endgame LS took their example from them (which is a good thing).

Sure, there's sometimes a certain level of favoritism to shell leaders, but too much of that tends to poison the atmosphere, and I don't know of too many great shells where the members willingly sacrifice that much to keep their shell together. More often what I see is leaders will grab the occasional important item if it's pertinent to their primary job(s) since they're often at events, and then will "pick up the spares" when there's decent gear that no one else wants, but that's hardly what I'd call abuse of power.

As for getting gear for jobs you're always arriving as, only bad shells will force/offer gear to someone who dislikes playing a particular job but brings it to an event because of necessity - unless of course no one else needs/wants said gear. So long as people are realistic about how much gear they should be getting and stays on roughly the same wavelength, everything works out sooner or later. Even if you don't get a particular item you want one time, a good LS will try to provide the item at the next opportunity, or something else that you've been wanting.

Point system and other objective methods are the best way to reduce the influence personal feelings on loot distribution, and IMO is easier to get it working right than any need based system.

I've been in many event groups in and out of my main LS with point systems. So far, I can't say any is/was run unfairly. They all share one characteristic: the points are updated regularly, and posted for all members to see so any error can be spotted and corrected.

Eh, I think what the problem with point-based systems is less to do with fairness (which is dependent on the sort of rules that are in place), but more that it discourages social bonding - when you're competing against other people to get the same gear, especially for pieces of gear that are especially popular/can be used by many jobs, it has a tendency to make people hold each other at arms length, which in turn is bad for the social dynamic aspect of the linkshell.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

"Need" is a line that can totally be blurred by the job system FFXI presents. Anyone can be any job, so anyone can "need" anything. Take away the ability to be any job (or just make it really difficult) and much of that issue goes away. To accomplish this in FFXI, an LS would have to enforce what players said what was their "main" and hold them to it.

But there are other ways to keep these kinds of attitudes in check - FFXI just doesn't employ them. Weapon/armer degradation is one surefire way of doing that. Not everyone is going to scramble for a situational piece of gear or a situational weapon if it requires maintenance. You don't see everyone scrambling to build relics, after all. Tremendous investment there.

Taking damage would have financial impacts as well, affording melee and tanks the lionshare of loots. Of course, this would mean FFXI would need general loot that was worth a damn. This would mean, however, that tanking and using consumable weapons would no longer be the charity FFXI players expect.

Would mages get the short end of the deal? They sure would. In FFXI, however, they tend to benefit the most from the current system. While the rest of us are downing foods, ammo or tools updating gear and weapons, mages don't really do so much of that by contrast.

Weapon and Armor degradation would also place a gilsink into the system.

Just one specific aspect of game design and attitudes can change quickly. In Everquest Online Adventures things went exactly as I described them, other MMOs as well.

And you know what? When something useable for my Enchanter dropped, I tended to get it. Its the least your party can do when you're doing crowd control, refreshing mana and whatnot. Tanks need the most loot for repairs, melees need repairs as well. Mages just needed enough to cover minor damage. If I happened to get something useful for me, great, I'd get it. No fuss, no squabbling and no point system.

In a good guild, the community mentality of "need before greed" would usually carry over. You could only be one class, so if you were the class it was hard to dispute need. Those that just "needed" to sell any loot that dropped - those people's names got around. It just wasn't done.

JPs that played also found their own replacements. Rare sight, but they did play the PC version of Everquest.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Kailea

my only endgame LS I have ever been in, used a point system, and it was great, and very fare, the points where even kept on a webpage on the LS homepage, for us to see where we stood, compared to other members.

That's how my limbus LS handles Homam and Nashira. Wishlists and point standings are maintained on the shell's website where any member can look at them.

Coins are split at the end of every run (the remainder goes to an LS bank that pays for soap on boss runs) and AF+1 pieces use a comment system (I don't know if there's an actual rule that you can only comment jobs you are 74 in, or just a very strong social norm, but it's pretty obvious that lotting against a player who is 74 in that job when you are not, or not at least really close, is kind of a jerkish thing to do, so basically nobody does it).

The leaders don't get any special advantage per se, but since they show up a lot and have been in the shell for a long time, they do have a lot of points. (Ditto some of the reliable non-leader members that have been in the shell for a long time, of course.) I don't trust leaders who want to give themselves more rewards than everyone else gets - if the amount of rewards ordinary members get isn't good enough for them, why should it be good enough for me?

Fortunately, since one of the leaders is a SMN and a THF, they don't have the bias against people with multiple jobs that I've seen in some endgame shells. (Because it isn't harsh enough to have to collect twice as much gear, some people want to make it take *more* than twice as long by imposing extra restrictions or penalties or whatever. Screw that.) Lots of members have several jobs and bring whatever the leaders ask them to bring that night, but it doesn't affect their loot rights or how many points they earn (although, of course, if you're looking for multiple pieces from both sets, you're going to need a lot of points).

[godsaiyan]

Originally Posted by Satori

I've always hoped we could have bases for our linkshells

I agree with you here mate. Even if the base was say like a MH but slightly larger, say a main hall and then smaller rooms for people, that would still be cool.

In more detail say everyone has access to the main hall, but only you have access to your room, unless invited of course

[Feba]

LS halls could be a nice feature, but I have to question the practicality of it.

1- FFXI doesn't have a ton of uses for meeting people in person. Basically trading is it if you're in town. This is why that coffee shop in Aht Urgan never took off (at least, on my server)
2- FFXI doesn't lock you into your LS. If you have an LS hall, you should definitely have access to your mog room from it, and it should be considered your main residence (with furniture and so on). But how do you decide which is your 'main' LS to join? What if an LS requires their members to bunk with them?
3- The real functionality that people want (shared inventory, a meeting place, etc.) is not nearly as easy to implement, and not really in high enough demand to warrant it.

And what would an LS hall have? Trophies? LS members would want to wear the equipment, generally, not leave it on mannequins or on a wall. New, LS-hall only furniture could be added, I guess; you could have a Behemoth rug, or NM heads mounted on the wall. But that has nothing more than cosmetics going for it. What sort of advantage would there be to showing up at an LS hall instead of using LS chat, or some other meeting point in town? A flexible meeting point is superior for a place to group up; LS chat is just as private.

LS system improvements would be better. Enabling shell holders to have more control over permissions, for example. How about shell holders being able to make LS pearls 'split' from afar, so that a pearl holder can pass one to their friends, without having to bring a sack/shellholder into it? Or allowing people to carry around pearl sacks, but without giving them the ability to kick pearls? Why not give sacks the power to kick other sacks? Why not allow a shell to transform a sack into a shell, and transform itself into a sack (effectively transferring ownership)?

All of those would be much, much easier to implement than LS halls, and would be far more useful.

[Raydeus]

Rather than a base I'd like to have an airship to travel/use as my MH.




Then you could fill positions for engineering, tactical, science, etc...

...no wait, wrong MMORPG.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Icemage

My LS keeps track of it with a constantly updated wishlist, and allows wishlisting for gear that is not the jobs you bring most often to events, with the only stipulation being that any job you wish to get endgame gear for be at least at level 70+. Those desires are factored in when making decisions about who gets what gears.

This is how most of the endgame ls's that I was in did it too and most of them failed at it miserably. My last ls had wishlists with the same guidelines. Some people felt if it was on their wishlist than this would mean they would eventually be considered for that item if it dropped. The leader saw wishlists as a way of seeing what events needed to be done by the amount of requests for gear from that event. The wishlist meant nothing other than that. I kept detailed wishlists for all events, per the leaders request. It took a considerable amount of time to compile and it took time to keep updated daily. In the end, the lists were just bullshit since they were never used and gear was given out mainly to the oldest most ass kissing members anyways. This tends to be the way most ls's do things and the people within the inner circle are blinded to this fact. Though I will say that I spoke up and championed for other members and got a few pieces wrestled away from the inner circle. Though it doesn't bode too well for me when I do it. LOL

Originally Posted by Icemage

Sure, there's sometimes a certain level of favoritism to shell leaders, but too much of that tends to poison the atmosphere, and I don't know of too many great shells where the members willingly sacrifice that much to keep their shell together. More often what I see is leaders will grab the occasional important item if it's pertinent to their primary job(s) since they're often at events, and then will "pick up the spares" when there's decent gear that no one else wants, but that's hardly what I'd call abuse of power.

I've been in ls's where the leader has abused this power, but more often than not they abuse their power by giving out equips to their favorites. (i.e. rl friends/relatives, people who kiss their ass on a constant basis, etc.) Thats where the abuse is most blatant. There is always an "inner circle" and if you aren't in it then don't expect to get any of the good drops anytime soon. Or I always like the the ploy the leader used to use with me when an item would drop that he/she wanted. They would /t me and say "Well I can't decide who should get it because I really want the item that dropped but if I take it then people will say that I'm being greedy. It's not the truth though because its been a long time since I've gotten a decent drop from any event but I just don't want to stir things up. So could you choose?" Now I can choose someone else but its obvious that the leader wants me to choose him/her and if I don't things probably won't be too pleasant for me within the ls. So damned if I do and damned if I don't.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

This tends to be the way most ls's do things and the people within the inner circle are blinded to this fact. Though I will say that I spoke up and championed for other members and got a few pieces wrestled away from the inner circle. Though it doesn't bode too well for me when I do it. LOL

I don't think I've ever been in the "inner circle", but I never really saw too much favoritism of any sort; if anything people that showed up a lot and spent a lot of time at events did get "some" preference for gear, but that's not unexpected nor unreasonable. My LS keeps track of all significant drops listed by date and who the item(s) went to, posted for all members to see, so it's easy to tell when there was an imbalance.

Now I can choose someone else but its obvious that the leader wants me to choose him/her and if I don't things probably won't be too pleasant for me within the ls. So damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I can honestly say I've never had the displeasure of having something like that happen.

The farthest I've gone to is going to bat for newer members who haven't yet received anything significant; often times I would pass on gear in deference to newer members to make them feel welcome, and encouraged others to do so as well.


Icemage

[Kailea]

Even though my LS was very fare, I never really got "the good stuff" because we always low manned EVERYTHING, but its because we had to, our member base was not that high ;p We would just make a little over full alliance for things like Dynamis, and that made it hard for me to find LS mates to do CoP with because many helped new people to do it, only for them to leave to another LS almost right after doing it -.-