[Kouper]

Originally Posted by Takelli

Flyff. Maple Story, 12 Sky, 12 Sky 2, Dragon Sky, Knight Online, KAL online... Want me to keep going?

As for the Solo thing goes, you should be able to gain a decent rate of Exp solo, like 3/4s of a Party speed, but not be abl eto out exp a full party. Like a few Trios can do, they can out exp a few parties if they are skilled enough.

Solo in FFXI also yields more money than exp so I do think that is a fair trade off. People who solo will have more money than those that who do not solo. When ever I need some extra cash, I do a few FoVs on target monsters that have decent drops. I used to kill Dhamels in the FoV, and get like 500 gil/hour + 15 Dhamel hides (800 each) per page. Sure, its not as fast of a party in terms of exp, but you sure do get a hell of a lot more money than a party.

True, I never even think of any of the Korean made mmo's. I forget they even exist most of the time... I guess its my own close minded thinking, when someone says MMO I think of WoW/FFXI/EQ1/2/ and so on.
I kinda want to return to FFXI... But I think Im going to wait for XIV... torn....

[Kaziel0]

Kailea beat me to the reply. His/her post sums up one of the most significant problems in WoW. Leveling in WoW, it's faster, in many ways, to level solo than it is to get a group and go kill mobs or even do quests together. (Side note: There are additional issues such as monsters over 4 levels above yours becoming next to impossible to kill, even in a party, which contributes to also parties being a bad source of XP. If anyone cares about it, I'll detail it and explain how Blizzard basically did the inversion of what SE did, and force people to solo with the exception of doing instances.)

This had the unintended side effect of not training even smart players in how to play in a group situation. Even instances, which require groups, are skippable, and are generally pretty easy if you've gotten to a high enough level to just plow through (even without a guide through the instance). You have things like idiots who use pushbacks in groups once the tank (usually me...) has gathered the mobs together. Not talking about using pushbacks when a mob is charging the healer or something, we're just talking running in and kocking everything away, potentially out of the range of an AOE. Another example is Hunters who have their pet set to growl (like a Provoke), and they try and tank one of the mobs when the tank already has everything under control. This is bad except in emergencies because the healer is probably not paying attention to the pet and it will die on it's own, then you have a mob running around free. These are all things that are perfectly valid and expected things when soloing, but in a group setting one is not only not working as a group, but actually making it harder for your teammates.

Simply put, all SE needs to do is make it so Soloing isn't impossible for any job (if this isn't already possible, it's close to possible right now... not sure about some jobs, like WHM, for soloing), while at the same time giving 1.5x to 2x the same amount of XP for partying. And it shouldn't be based on XP per kill, but XP per a given timeframe, like XP per hour.

I'm not saying partying should be mandatory like it was when FFXI was first released, but if the benefits of partying outweigh the benefits of soloing, then I think many players (not all, because some people just don't like partying) will try to find parties, but not be restricted from soloing.

====

Additional thoughts:

Obviously solo XP will vary based upon job. I'd say a good number to base it upon is an average of the top five or so jobs, unless one is obviously made with soloing in mind/exceptional soloer (e.g. BST). You wouldn't want to balance it based upon the lowest XP, because unless you were somehow able to balance it so that there was very little variance in XP per hour outside of a party, odds are the upper tiers of soloers would equal or exceed party XP, and this obviously fails in the design.

Also, you don't want partying XP to generate a significantly larger amount of XP than soloing (5x or 10x), because then you balance your XP needed per level based upon partying, and it takes forever to get it soloing (a serious issue right now in the 50+ level range).

[Kouper]

Originally Posted by Kaziel0

This had the unintended side effect of not training even smart players in how to play in a group situation. Even instances, which require groups, are skippable, and are generally pretty easy if you've gotten to a high enough level to just plow through (even without a guide through the instance). You have things like idiots who use pushbacks in groups once the tank (usually me...) has gathered the mobs together. Not talking about using pushbacks when a mob is charging the healer or something, we're just talking running in and kocking everything away, potentially out of the range of an AOE. Another example is Hunters who have their pet set to growl (like a Provoke), and they try and tank one of the mobs when the tank already has everything under control. This is bad except in emergencies because the healer is probably not paying attention to the pet and it will die on it's own, then you have a mob running around free. These are all things that are perfectly valid and expected things when soloing, but in a group setting one is not only not working as a group, but actually making it harder for your teammates.

Simply put, all SE needs to do is make it so Soloing isn't impossible for any job (if this isn't already possible, it's close to possible right now... not sure about some jobs, like WHM, for soloing), while at the same time giving 1.5x to 2x the same amount of XP for partying. And it shouldn't be based on XP per kill, but XP per a given timeframe, like XP per hour..

I think the sad thing about that is the fact that when wow was new, as in pre bc, you'd do mostly instances for leveling, in groups of Five. The game was new so you had tons of people leveling, and it was generally super fast to get a group. By the mid thirties you had people who understood the mechanics of their classes, you had some powerleveling, but a geared 60 back then was in blues, not the free epics you get now. Anyways, in the mid thirties most rogues understood how to sap correctly, hunters knew how to pull, mages knew to poly morph, and so on. But with the increase in level and the continued decrease in players walking around the old world, they made soloing more viable. And with wotlk out it doesn't make sense to do instances anymore because A- you're going to have a hell of time gettinga group if you're sub 60, and B- quests have gone from giving good xp to loads and loads of xp. Add in the fact that now level capped players can solo lowbie instances in a pull or two, so fast that the xp loss doesn't matter, and you have a pretty good reason why its been changed. Then again, wow has gone from fun and balanced to the game of the qqing lazy person who wants to be given free epics because they pay 15 a month too....

The more I type the more I wish FFXIV was either further away, or closer.....

[Maju]

Originally Posted by Ziero

And here we have another massive case of rose colored glasses. Did you honestly just try and say that anyone who had a 75 job back in the day was "almost" automatically a good player? That people in the dunes on second jobs always had good gear? That power levelers didn't exists at all on your wonderful, magical server? Really?

Yes, in fact that's exactly what tried to say. You keep accusing others of "rose colored glasses", personally, I think your own perception is warped, because that is exactly what I experienced if you just replace absolutes like "always" with "usually", or even "almost always".

I saw power levelers the first day I played the game, back before the NA PS2 version was released. They were in the dunes, in Qufim, in the jungles, hell I had friends get Plvled at 60 in Onzozo.

Like I said, I saw no PLs back then or at the very least I never was in a party supported by a PL and it never even crossed my mind to have one. When I came back, PLs were the norm rather than the exception. If you don't recognize the massive shift, you're seriously deluded. Or perhaps the PL craze died since I left, but I wouldn't know about that.

Also, the community has significantly eroded since the early days. Just look at the server specific forums, or at least the forum of Midgardsormr (my server). In 2004 there were many, many pages of threads. 2009 has seven topics. Seven. This is also one of the reasons that lead to me leaving the game.

Seeing as we knew less about food and had FAR fewer gear options back in the day, I fail to see how it is even remotely possible that every single player back then had the best of everything. Especially considering back in the day it was either Snipers, Hauby, SH (all of which multimillion gill items) or gimp.

Hauby and was the norm. If you didn't have one by L60 on a job expected to have it, you were, in fact, gimp. I consider this a bad thing because hauby was indeed a tad pricey and not entirely effortless to acquire unless you had connections, which I did not (yet I did get a hauby on my PLD as soon as my level was high enough to wear it).

Things like Scorp. Harness and Peacock Charm were not expected because these items cost several times more than most other expensive items. People did not have the "best" gear, obviously, but they put effort into gearing up and would show up, if not in the absolute stone cold nuts, in "good gear" rather than gimp it through in full AF and a couple L21 earrings like a certain dragoon I had the "pleasure" of partying with in Bibiki Bay during my second stay in FFXI.

Though from everything I hear, WoW endgame gets boring as it's the same few raids over and over while FFXI's has the largest and most varied endgame experience out there.

Sure, FFXI has more "varied" end game as in Einherjar is more functionally different from Sea or whatever than raid #1 is from raid #2 in WoW, however, if we don't count level capped content as "end game", I'm sure WoW offers much more. FFXI has always been more about the "journey", whereas WoW has always been about the end game and there is barely any content whatsoever until level cap. WoW is also game mechanically much more advanced and has a UI about a million times better than FFXI.

I love FFXI and it does some things better than any other MMO out there, but end game activities has never, in my opinion, been one of them. In fact, the strengths of FFXI over WoW, to me, are 1) leveling (because I can't stand soloing), 2) story/immersion and 3) community. Practically everything else WoW does better and SE has done their best to remove these key strengths by bringing some of those aspects of the game closer to WoW. It's like they're trying to move FFXI from being a niche game with its dedicated audience (EVE Online) to something that is exactly like WoW, only worse in every possible way.

[Kouper]

Originally Posted by Maju

Sure, FFXI has more "varied" end game as in Einherjar is more functionally different from Sea or whatever than raid #1 is from raid #2 in WoW, however, if we don't count level capped content as "end game", I'm sure WoW offers much more. FFXI has always been more about the "journey", whereas WoW has always been about the end game and there is barely any content whatsoever until level cap. WoW is also game mechanically much more advanced and has a UI about a million times better than FFXI.

I love FFXI and it does some things better than any other MMO out there, but end game activities has never, in my opinion, been one of them. In fact, the strengths of FFXI over WoW, to me, are 1) leveling (because I can't stand soloing), 2) story/immersion and 3) community. Practically everything else WoW does better and SE has done their best to remove these key strengths by bringing some of those aspects of the game closer to WoW. It's like they're trying to move FFXI from being a niche game with its dedicated audience (EVE Online) to something that is exactly like WoW, only worse in every possible way.

Don't get me wrong, Im a huge fan of wow, you'll all be tired of me eventually, or already are. However I think the difference in UI is really just the difference in age. But when you talk about the amount of endgame in wow, Here's what you have- You have heroic 5 man dungeons. These are all the dungeoun instances in Northrend retuned for a level 80 in better gear, they offer better rewards, badges which can be turned in for awesome rewards, and can only be ran once a day. Then you have raids, each has a 10 and 25 man version with there being 4 drops from a 25 man raid and 2 from a 10, and the 25 man raids rewards are slightly better. These you can do once a week. They are naxx/os/eoe/uld/voa with ULD being the high end right now. As far as variety goes, they're really just trying to recreate the original games endgame content in way... Naxx was the original T3 raid, few people saw it because it was insanely hard and was released right before Burning Crusade was released. OS is an easy version of the onyxia fight. Voa is pretty much a gear give away with uld being unique and new.

As it is, the community in FFXI on a whole, is vastly superior, even with the elitists.

[Ketaru]

Also, the community has significantly eroded since the early days. Just look at the server specific forums, or at least the forum of Midgardsormr (my server). In 2004 there were many, many pages of threads. 2009 has seven topics. Seven. This is also one of the reasons that lead to me leaving the game.

The community has eroded because people post less? If you log on today, there is almost never a lack of anything to do. People are always organizing events to try and accomplish goals. Back then, people didn't get together for much of anything...wait a minute...there was nothing much of anything to do back then. Unless you really count robotic approaches to attacking EXP mobs as engrossing content. The experience only changed in so much as you got access to new spells, abilities, and weaponskills.

The issue here is that people seem to think the players are less skilled somehow because they stopped doing one simple additional element in parties. Most know how to do it anyway when they have to unlock weapon skill points.

Things like Scorp. Harness and Peacock Charm were not expected because these items cost several times more than most other expensive items. People did not have the "best" gear, obviously, but they put effort into gearing up and would show up, if not in the absolute stone cold nuts, in "good gear" rather than gimp it through in full AF and a couple L21 earrings like a certain dragoon I had the "pleasure" of partying with in Bibiki Bay during my second stay in FFXI.

I once partied with a THF in full AF and off handed a sword at level 70. And a WHM once asked to borrow my Life Belt because he wanted to learn Hexastrike against Tormentors. Based on those two experiences, I can conclude that too many people in 2004 sucked at their jobs. See? I can cite isolated incidences as evidence too.

The FFXI community was never a forgiving playerbase when it came to gear. In fact, it's far less forgiving now because information about gear is so easily accessible, as well as easier-to-obtain alternatives to stats that were once reserved for only the most expensive gear (like Acc on Haub, Peacock, SH). SH and Haub are much cheaper now and widely used. You don't have to get PCC, instead you could just get Spectacles or Chivalrous Chain. The HQ elemental staffs cost less than the NQ ones did during this supposed Player Skill Utopia. And parses are readily accessible on the internet if you want to see what kind of performance you should measure up to. Only people long ago were more content to say "Skill > Gear", completely ignoring that gear part of the equation of determining skill in this game. People have far higher expectations now than they used to. And here we're thinking people gear themselves worse today than they used to...

1. Why are people less skilled today because there is more content?
2. If all this content never existed, do you really think FFXI would've been better off?

[Maju]

Originally Posted by Ketaru

The community has eroded because people post less? If you log on today, there is almost never a lack of anything to do. People are always organizing events to try and accomplish goals. Back then, people didn't get together for much of anything...wait a minute...there was nothing much of anything to do back then. Unless you really count robotic approaches to attacking EXP mobs as engrossing content. The experience only changed in so much as you got access to new spells, abilities, and weaponskills.

I don't remember much difference in in-game behaviour, but forum activity shrunk to non-existent levels and forums are really where the serverwide communities come together. It seems like later on people isolated themselves to their linkshells and cliques more and more.

The issue here is that people seem to think the players are less skilled somehow because they stopped doing one simple additional element in parties. Most know how to do it anyway when they have to unlock weapon skill points.

That, too, but more so because of PLs. I could easily spot people who had leveled up with PLs holding their hand the whole way through. I don't know what else there is for me to say about this, really.

As for the change in play style, I think there was less to think about post TP burn craze as all you did was auto-attack until 100% and then hit your WS macro. There was no THF positioning, no enmity management or any kind of inetarction with the other party members, really. Partying became like soloing in a group. To me, that is simple and easy. Yes, even more so than repeating the same SC over and over.

I once partied with a THF in full AF and off handed a sword at level 70. And a WHM once asked to borrow my Life Belt because he wanted to learn Hexastrike against Tormentors. Based on those two experiences, I can conclude that too many people in 2004 sucked at their jobs. See? I can cite isolated incidences as evidence too.

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have brought up a single situation as I should have known it'd attract this comment.

1. Why are people less skilled today because there is more content?
2. If all this content never existed, do you really think FFXI would've been better off?

1. I don't know about "today" as I last played in I think late 2007 or early 2008. In any case, I remember the early levels being roughly the same, except much epic failure was prevented thanks to PLs being absolutely everywhere. Unfortunately these people thus never learned from those failures and would then proceed to repeatedly die whenever a PL was not present. It didn't matter if they were doing G1 or exping in the early 50s, they'd just die over and over much like you'd expect from the trainwreck that is a group of newbies in the dunes.

2. If the ToAU zones never existed? Absolutely! I can't say I ever got much out of that expansion, other than ridiculously easy exp that warped my preferred play style, that is. Now, I don't know what cool crap they added since then, but Assault and Salvage were new when I was last around and I didn't get to participate much because 1) I'm European and thus of an endangered species on Midgardsormr and 2) my only high level job was lolPLD who couldn't blink shit. Not that I found those activities that special in the first place, though. With my admittedly limited perspective, I thought they were kind of like BCNMs, only less exciting.

[TheGrandMom]

Well I've been on Midgard since initial NA release. Comparing now to then, I see rather the opposite in some aspects. Back in the day the NA's were the "noobs" on the server. The JP's let us know this every single day. LOL

When NA's were nubs, parties were made and people were picky and constantly reminded people to BRING FOOD or GET SIGNET. Nowadays you rarely hear people telling others this. Back in the day, there were lots of people that didn't bring food though because even food was expensive and many people were too busy getting to 75 so they didn't have time to level cooking.

Our community posts less because there is less to post about! Back in the day we were stumbling along trying to understand things so lots of communication was needed. Now we have wiki's and forums to visit to find our answers without even asking a question. We have endgame people that pick the game apart for us so why bother communicating. It's just a normal progression.

I will say the loss of things like Skillchaining and Magic Bursting is a loss of an important part of the game. In endgame you use these skills regularly and often times we bring apps to events only to see that they are not proficient in these areas. They may be a great person, a good player, but if they don't have the skills needed for endgame we have to deny them which is very unfortunate.

Back in the day if people came to parties with crappy equips, it was usually because they were too lazy to go do the farming necessary to get the items. Back then it was GET TO 75, GET TO 75! Its one of the reasons the JP's got so annoyed with us, because we didn't take the time to do things the way the developers intended. Level at an even pace, earn money by exploring the game and doing quests/missions, level a craft to make yourself items/gil, and take your time to learn the dynamics of the game. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO 75 was too damn important! I hated it because I wanted to do it the other way and most other people were focused on getting to endgame.

When I was just a fledgling dark knight, I turned 48 and didn't have a Life Belt. It was hard getting parties back then because thats when Drg's were Penta Whores. LOL So when I did get a party sometimes, I'd get the boot when they checked me and saw I didn't have a Life Belt. (That was also back in the day when they were very expensive to buy and trying to get a chest from a Thf to get the drop was damn near impossible.) I saw this happen with other pieces of equipment too, including Haubs. I think people now are more tolerant of people that don't have the most top notch equips because player skill > uber equips.

I also ran into my fair share of idiots back in the day too. The one that irritated me the most was the blm that didn't know how to make a macro..... For the love of god how did he get past the 50's when you really needed one to magic burst on crabs in Kuftal!? He also sucked at magic bursting...wow really!? lol I took a couple hours of my time to teach him how to make a macro, how to use it and how to magic burst. And for the love of god the Rdms that couldn't get a refresh cycle right past level 60 were EVERYWHERE! A competent Rdm back in the day was like Willy Wonka's Golden Ticket!

I think many times we remember the past more fondly than actually how it was. I think nowadays it is easier to solo to level which is nice for people that like to do that. There are still people that prefer to party but its much harder to get into parties in the lower levels. I think the game dynamics have changed and for people that remember the past fondly, this makes the game less attractive now. For people who've been playing right along and have adapted as things have changed, most are basically content with many things. For someone that may have played back in the old days and thinking of returning, things might not seem as attractive anymore. Everyone has their own play style and if something doesn't suit you then move along, but it doesn't mean that things are horrible because if they were the game wouldn't be as stable as it is.

As for endgame, I think endgame is f**king awesome! I've played my fair share of MMO's and I'll say straight out that FFXI's endgame rates right up at the top. What I don't enjoy in endgame is the cliquey lying assholes that are plentiful but thats human nature and not FFXI's fault.


EDIT: Oh ya, I also had a PL's back in the day. They've always been around but the community didn't rely on them back then like they do now.

[Maju]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

Well I've been on Midgard since initial NA release. Comparing now to then, I see rather the opposite in some aspects. Back in the day the NA's were the "noobs" on the server. The JP's let us know this every single day. LOL

Yes, I clearly remember preferring JP parties until late 50s when I felt the difference evened out and NA/EU probably even got an edge as they would be more creative.

As for endgame, I think endgame is f**king awesome! I've played my fair share of MMO's and I'll say straight out that FFXI's endgame rates right up at the top. What I don't enjoy in endgame is the cliquey lying assholes that are plentiful but thats human nature and not FFXI's fault.

I think it actually is FFXI's fault to a degree. The fact that Kings spawn once a week probably has an effect on people who can't stop dreaming about those Ridills and whatnot. Also, camping for a mob that may or may not spawn between now and the next five hours is terrible game design.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Maju

The fact that Kings spawn once a week probably has an effect on people who can't stop dreaming about those Ridills and whatnot. Also, camping for a mob that may or may not spawn between now and the next five hours is terrible game design.

Ridill drops from NQ faf, who pops (almost) every day, but I think you still have a point.

At the time FFXI was originally developed, having NMs pop in the world where anyone can interact with them was the state of the art in MMOs - it was considered one of the cool things about them as opposed to single-player games, where what one player did didn't affect another.

Eventually game designers figured out that not all player-player interactions were beneficial, particularly the kind where one group of players kills a mob that another group of players also wanted to fight. But for some reason, SE hasn't completely abandoned the "compete for mobs" model - not just in not giving the original kings the Ullikummi treatment, but introducing the CoP wyrms, Cerb/Hydra/Khim, Ixion and Sandworm.

What they did to Ullikummi proves they *can* solve player-player competition, but introducing Ixion and Sandworm afterwards proves they don't want to completely abandon that type of content, although it's certainly not the only kind of endgame activity the way it used to be before Dynamis. Importers and others who raced to high levels in the first couple years created an impression of FFXI endgame that is now very misleading, but hasn't completely faded anyway.

Personally, I'd rather see all those mobs work like BCNMs, or ENMs, or ZNMs, or sky, or sea, or Limbus bosses, or any of the many other systems of giving people opportunities to fight special fights that FFXI has where other players' success isn't *automatically* your failure. But clearly the devs disagree.

[Kaziel0]

Generally speaking, the top tier of endgame generally doesn't engender much camradeier, whether or not it's a case of HNMs where only one group can kill it per day, or otherwise. In WoW, despite almost 100% of all endgame PvE content being instanced, there are still rivalries between groups and large swaths of raiders are nothing but elitists douches.

While no doubt the rivalries created in FFXI by daily or weekly pop HNMs (and even worse when said HNMs are stolen) are stronger because of it, it is by no means something exclusive to FFXI.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Mostly I miss playing with polite JP and NA players who weren't in a rush:

/t <BRD, RDM, DD> Good Evening. Lv53 Party (PLD/WAR, WHM/SMN, BLM/WHM) ni Kuftal Tunnel ikimasu. Team Up?
Yes, please!
/p Onegaishimasu ^^
/bow <p1>
/bow <p2>
...
/p Ready? Teleport: Altepa
hai
~
~
yes
/p Renkai ??? > ??? > Distortion > Blizzard II kudasai

I first started playing during NA release, and I found parties really good. However, I was playing both the tank and main healer with all other members usually JP. I miss the polite greatings, meeting for teleports, and setting up the skill chain and magic burst which was always performed flawlessly.

Honestly the game was harder back then. PLD rarely blocked and didn't have Dark Staff, Auto Refresh, Parade Gorget, updated Sentinal, gain TP from blocking, or keep TP while resting. WHM didn't have SCH SJ, Afflatus Solace, Divine Veil, Dark Staff, or Light Staff. We over hunted and struggled to gain TP without a BRD or SMN with Fenrir, but we still made it by with a RDM and double magic burst. Sometimes we even had triple magic burst parties with PLD, WHM, BLM x 2, RDM, and RNG, which were tons of fun for everyone. Certainly cannot forget playing PLD with Phalanx Rings, Defender, and Boiled Crab. I think most my TP came from getting hit.

Then I leveled as off-tank (WAR/NIN) and main healer (RDM/WHM) with mostly NA members, and again they always performed the skill chains and magic bursts flawlessly. I don't know where you all found these players who couldn't play. However, the most fun I had with this combination was getting all my coffer keys and killing all my NMs for the AF as a Lv54-60 duo.

Still though I burned out again a little after Lv60 and started BST and SAM. Lv60-75 just weren't as fun. It was actually as a duo and trio that I finally made it to Lv75 SAM and RDM. I guess experimenting, shorter play periods, and the xp ring finally made it interesting enough. Of course I then burned out and quit again. Will be returning in a week to keep my characters active and work on duoing through the battles to Sky.

[Raydeus]

I was going to post about all the good times I had in JP parties/events but...

I'd rather use that time to study more japanese (mainly kanjis), as I'm aiming for a JP client next time.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I'm doubtful my Japanese will get better before FFXIV, but you do bring something to mind. I might get to join forum members whom I respect and share similar interests with from FFXI.

Things I like:
1. Helping with...
... Subjob Quest
... Limit Quests
... Artifact Quets
... Missions
... Parties (mostly Lv41-60)
2. Battlefields (BCNM, KSNM, ENM, etc.)
3. Exploring
4. Hypothesizing
5. Calculating
6. Testing
7. Battlefields (BCNM, KSNM, ENM, etc.)

Things I never got into:
1. HNM
2. Dynamis
2. Sky
3. Sea
4. Assault
5. Meriting

As a casual player, I don't have much interest in maxing out a job completely for endgame, but I'll get merits by level syncing with LS members. I absolutely love playing SAM/WAR (tank) and RDM/SCH (main healer) between Lv41 and 60. Heck I get to skill chain and magic burst. Doesn't get much better than that. However, I do tire quickly playing both jobs, but rarely do I have more than 2 hours to party anyway. If I were planning to play longer, I'd just bring RDM/WAR, RDM/SCH, or RDM/DNC depending on what was needed..

P.S. - Yes, this does look similar to a dating service profile. Just an idea for a thread nearer to the release of FFXIV.

[Coinspinner]

Originally Posted by Kouper

I think the sad thing about that is the fact that when wow was new, as in pre bc, you'd do mostly instances for leveling, in groups of Five. The game was new so you had tons of people leveling, and it was generally super fast to get a group. By the mid thirties you had people who understood the mechanics of their classes, you had some powerleveling, but a geared 60 back then was in blues, not the free epics you get now. Anyways, in the mid thirties most rogues understood how to sap correctly, hunters knew how to pull, mages knew to poly morph, and so on.

...

That is the very opposite of my experience in WoW (also pre-BC). I tried forming parties, but nobody was interested. I did get invited to an instance once or twice on each character, and nobody knew what to do and the groups never made it more than halfway.

Originally Posted by Maju

Hauby and was the norm. If you didn't have one by L60 on a job expected to have it, you were, in fact, gimp. I consider this a bad thing because hauby was indeed a tad pricey and not entirely effortless to acquire unless you had connections, which I did not (yet I did get a hauby on my PLD as soon as my level was high enough to wear it).

Things like Scorp. Harness and Peacock Charm were not expected because these items cost several times more than most other expensive items. People did not have the "best" gear, obviously, but they put effort into gearing up and would show up, if not in the absolute stone cold nuts, in "good gear" rather than gimp it through in full AF and a couple L21 earrings like a certain dragoon I had the "pleasure" of partying with in Bibiki Bay during my second stay in FFXI.

Haubergeon wasn't the norm at all. You saw a lot of people in R.K. chain mail or AF well into their 60s. A lot of people just gimped along until the cheaper hauberk, if that. A damn lot went Ranger or BLM just before CoP too, from the pressure to get these expensive items they didn't want to farm for and expecting they'd get better bang for the buck.

Originally Posted by Maju

FFXI has always been more about the "journey", whereas WoW has always been about the end game and there is barely any content whatsoever until level cap.

Yes indeed. That's the main reason I prefer FFXI.