[Kailea]

uumm Zieroyou really should looking to things before you say things as fact....these "people" you talk about... well safe to say I know plenty, inducing me, who do not fall into this category. I always have food, my gear is always above average (or I try for it to be) and I even do heavy gear swapping (heavy for a DRG or DNC anyway) even in normal parties, not just endgame. Yes I like everyone else started as a level one, and worked our way up, but I learned quickly like many have, what to do and what not to do in a fight.

[Ketaru]

Originally Posted by Kailea

uumm Zieroyou really should looking to things before you say things as fact....these "people" you talk about... well safe to say I know plenty, inducing me, who do not fall into this category. I always have food, my gear is always above average (or I try for it to be) and I even do heavy gear swapping (heavy for a DRG or DNC anyway) even in normal parties, not just endgame. Yes I like everyone else started as a level one, and worked our way up, but I learned quickly like many have, what to do and what not to do in a fight.

I was going to reply a reply very much similar to Ziero's until I decided, after typing it out, that it wasn't worth getting angry over. But he is saying the truth. This game, and the people in it, are far better off today than they were years ago. The truth is this game was never the wonderful skill utopia people paint it to be. In truth, for many, many, EXP parties were, and continue to be, the least attractive aspect of the game. And if we didn't complain about a party back then, it wasn't because less parties were bad. It's because we had no choice because it was literally the only way to get EXP.

My question, Kailea, is why you are personalizing this so? He didn't accuse anybody here of not having food, not gear swapping, or acting like a complete tool. He said that people have always done it, people will continue to do it in the foreseeable future. People will probably do it in XIV. But we'd all be deluding ourselves if we thought it was less rampant in the past.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Ketaru

I was going to reply a reply very much similar to Ziero's until I decided, after typing it out, that it wasn't worth getting angry over. But he is saying the truth. This game, and the people in it, are far better off today than they were years ago. The truth is this game was never the wonderful skill utopia people paint it to be. In truth, for many, many, EXP parties were, and continue to be, the least attractive aspect of the game. And if we didn't complain about a party back then, it wasn't because less parties were bad. It's because we had no choice because it was literally the only way to get EXP.

My question, Kailea, is why you are personalizing this so? He didn't accuse anybody here of not having food, not gear swapping, or acting like a complete tool. He said that people have always done it, people will continue to do it in the foreseeable future. People will probably do it in XIV. But we'd all be deluding ourselves if we thought it was less rampant in the past.

I am giving myself as an example, because what he says in not true. He speeks as if, well like he siad, all parties suck, and everyone does this and that, and I am sorry but he does not speek for everyone.

[Ketaru]

Originally Posted by Kailea

I am giving myself as an example, because what he says in not true. He speeks as if, well like he siad, all parties suck, and everyone does this and that, and I am sorry but he does not speek for everyone.

And the generalization is more true today than it was back then? Do people really suck more now? If the generalization isn't true, what are people here whining about?

All he is saying is that this supposed Golden Age of player skill never really existed. People are no more or less better at the game today than they were back then. They still seek the path of least resistance. But if it all means more options about how to spend your time online, less job exclusivity, and more player freedom, then it is worth it to have a perceived drop in player quality in exchange for an actual increase in opportunities to do things.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Kailea

I am giving myself as an example, because what he says in not true. He speeks as if, well like he siad, all parties suck, and everyone does this and that, and I am sorry but he does not speek for everyone.

I have never said all parties suck or that "everyone" does anything. I'm saying that there has always been a large amount of bad players, long before ToAU ever came out. Yes there were good players then, and there are good players now. I was just saying that the stupid people that are around now are just as numerous as the stupid people that were around then. Job discrimination, long waits for parties, camp stealing, gimped players, stupid players, jackass players, they've always been in this game, and if anything they were worse before ToAU. In the past few years we've seen MASSIVE improvements in every aspect of this game, yet people still look back and think the old days were "better times". The truth is, they weren't. They were much worse.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Ziero

I have never said all parties suck or that "everyone" does anything. I'm saying that there has always been a large amount of bad players, long before ToAU ever came out. Yes there were good players then, and there are good players now. I was just saying that the stupid people that are around now are just as numerous as the stupid people that were around then. Job discrimination, long waits for parties, camp stealing, gimped players, stupid players, jackass players, they've always been in this game, and if anything they were worse before ToAU. In the past few years we've seen MASSIVE improvements in every aspect of this game, yet people still look back and think the old days were "better times". The truth is, they weren't. They were much worse.

it all depends on what people see as "better" I agree the game has improved alot, in fact its one of the things that really makes me want to keep playing. I just dont like it when people generalize things, ask around I get pretty pissy ;p

[DakAttack]

Arguing with Ziero is like arguing with a wall. His glasses may not be tinted rose, but they're tinted something.

[Ketaru]

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Arguing with Ziero is like arguing with a wall. His glasses may not be tinted rose, but they're tinted something.

Trying to discredit somebody without actually saying why they're wrong, hmm? We've said all that needs to be said. The "Golden Age" of this game has been called "something", and whatever that something is, it's not reality.

it all depends on what people see as "better" I agree the game has improved alot, in fact its one of the things that really makes me want to keep playing. I just dont like it when people generalize things, ask around I get pretty pissy ;p

But that's exactly what the opposing viewpoint is doing. They're pointing at people today and saying "Look! They're not bothering to to practice the difficult, game defining arts of lining up weaponskills to make pretty effects! They must lack the skill that players of Yesteryear had when they excluded jobs left and right, only one job was capable of soloing, people could easily MPK each other, you spent hours seeking getting nothing done, arrowburns and manaburns flexed their unbalanced superiority, and made skillchains! People today must suck more than they did years ago!"

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Ketaru

Trying to discredit somebody without actually saying why they're wrong, hmm? We've said all that needs to be said. The "Golden Age" of this game has been called "something", and whatever that something is, it's not reality.

What's the point when:

Arguing with Ziero is like arguing with a wall.

I've said all that I need to say, so I'm not going to find different ways of saying it in the hope that it'll get through the wall.

But that's exactly what the opposing viewpoint is doing. They're pointing at people today and saying "Look! They're not bothering to to practice the difficult, game defining arts of lining up weaponskills to make pretty effects! They must lack the skill that players of Yesteryear had when they excluded jobs left and right, only one job was capable of soloing, people could easily MPK each other, you spent hours seeking getting nothing done, arrowburns and manaburns flexed their unbalanced superiority, and made skillchains! People today must suck more than they did years ago!"

Does this actually have a point, other than telling us we're saying things we're not saying? How does anything you've highlighted change the fact that we believe SCs are skillful, and an important part of an efficient, well-balanced party? Generally, what we're arguing is that, post-ToAU, parties have worsened to a noticeable degree. What you're arguing is that parties sucked before ToAU, I get that, but what does excluding jobs, soloing, MPK, the amount of time spent seeking, and various burn parties have to do with that?

[Armando]

I'm a bit late to the party and probably just preaching to the choir but I just wanted to toss in my two cents. I find it a bit funny that people say the player population's general skill has decreased.

Ok, ok, that sounded a little bit abrasive. I understand where you're coming from - I really do. Let me be clearer. The general player base has never had skill. It all boils down to a sheep mentality. People back then didn't really understand skillchains. It was all Distortion Distortion Distortion. They didn't know Lv.2 Skillchains do 60% damage but Lv.1's aren't that far behind doing 50%. They didn't understand that sometimes it was better NOT to skillchain because the WS involved were so pathetically weak, that you'd end up breaking even at best. And every other party you'd get that one dude that you'd give a SC to and he'd always manage to fuck it up somehow.

Karinya likes to use the analogy the players are like a liquid and they fill whatever container the devs put out before them. It really is quite like that. There are their exceptions but the majority of the players are just sheep. You want Skillchains back? Make it the most effective way to EXP and watch people convert overnight, spout about the importance of SC+MB and even ram it into certain situations where they're not necessary nor appropriate. The people from the olden days were just following the trend back then just as much as the current players follow them now.

I'd also like to point out that before ToAU's EZMODE mentality, people would always overhunt because lolPLD has no offense and ITs print out the prettiest (read: biggest) numbers. In addition to that, SE had your balls in a vicegrip when it came to party composition back then. No BLM? No Refresh? GTFO. And all your fucking WARs had a one-handed sword or a spear or a scythe as they emulated jobs they hadn't unlocked yet. And WAR was a job that shouldn't be taken past 37 (thx Brady guide!) and all the morons gravitated to DRK to put out the biggest numbers hit per hit and DRG was still lol and RNG was broken and there was a civil war between the PLDs and the NINs.

I don't think this "ezmode exp" is such a bad thing. I'd like to try out new jobs without taking forever to level them up. I mean, it's not that I want to have everything at 75, but it's not like taking a job to 75 isn't a significant time investment even if it's much faster than it used to be.

I understand, though. I agree SCs should make a comeback. I just don't think it's as clean-cut as "I remember back in the days..." and "these days all everyone does is..." The players back then frustrated me with their stupidity back then just as much as the current ones do now. They just frustrated me with different things. I would love to get the traditional party setup and behavior back. But don't expect idiocy to go down along with it.

[Ketaru]

Does this actually have a point, other than telling us we're saying things we're not saying? How does anything you've highlighted change the fact that we believe SCs are skillful, and an important part of an efficient, well-balanced party? Generally, what we're arguing is that, post-ToAU, parties have worsened to a noticeable degree. What you're arguing is that parties sucked before ToAU, I get that, but what does excluding jobs, soloing, MPK, the amount of time spent seeking, and various burn parties have to do with that?

Did the fact it's highlighted so it's intentionally harder to read to right over your head? I don't care how much "skill" you think is involved in believing SCs are part of a well balanced party. Guess what. Back when Distortion was all the rage, THFs were virtually guarenteed a spot in a party, that is until DRK takes over at 60 anyway. That same narrowmindedness ensured BLMs got a spot in party because people thought the epeen spike damage from magic burst outdid the DoT a MNK could offer. I mean, we actually thought Magic Bursting Freeze was a good idea! To some people, that might seem like a wonderful era where parties were inclusive. But really, it's just as dogmatic as it is today. If part of making a "well-balanced party" means making sure you have a very specific set of jobs, I don't know how that's any different from present day parties.

I highlighted those things because they are facts that people conveniently gloss over when they talk about how much better people back then were than they are today. Don't sell yourself short saying I'm arguing that EXP parties sucked before ToAU. I'm saying the entire EXPing situation sucked before Level Sync, Campaign, FoV, Sanction, increased EXP from Easy/Decent Prey. Don't believe me? DRG says Hi.

My interest in bringing back skillchains lies solely in bringing equality to some other jobs that can't function in ToAU parties. I'm not going to pretend that "skill" is involved in one person WSing after another though. After all, we all learn to do it when we want to unlock our latent weapons.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Ketaru

.Don't sell yourself short saying I'm arguing that EXP parties sucked before ToAU. I'm saying the entire EXPing situation sucked before Level Sync, Campaign, FoV, Sanction, increased EXP from Easy/Decent Prey. Don't believe me? DRG says Hi.

I actually agree, though, I had no problems leveling Dragoon back when it was loldrg. It was much harder after that, even during lolpup.

My interest in bringing back skillchains lies solely in bringing equality to some other jobs that can't function in ToAU parties. I'm not going to pretend that "skill" is involved in one person WSing after another though.

It must be more difficult than that if it's something people can have trouble with.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Kailea

it all depends on what people see as "better" I agree the game has improved alot, in fact its one of the things that really makes me want to keep playing. I just dont like it when people generalize things, ask around I get pretty pissy ;p

It's better as in more jobs can get exp much easier and much faster then in '06. Even Blms and Smns, two, as of today's standards, party unfriendly jobs, can rake in upwards of 10k an hour solo. That's more then the best parties made on average three years ago. While jobcism still exists today, it's no where near as strong or as varied as it was before ToAU. You can take a party of Sam, Drk, Thf, Drg, Whm, Brd and make 20K an hour. Something you used to need four Rng or four Mnks or four Wars to do can be done with any melees in much more areas.

It's better as in there are more great gear options for casual players and much of the economy has been brought under better control so we don't have things like 10 million gil Scorp harnesses. There's been an incredible amount of side grade gear added that's cheap and easy to afford, even though it might not be the best. So someone who doesn't constantly play can still have an okay set-up.

It's better because there's a wealth of End-game of all types, shapes and sizes for players to participate in. No longer is it just Dynamis, Limbus or Sky. ToAU alone brought with it no less then three endgame events of varying sizes, two of which can be done by as little as 6 people. And that's not even including "non-endgame" things like Assaults, ISNMs, the Ashu Talif quests or even ZNMs as they came with WotG.

We've had massive changes to all aspects of the game that have made every player's lives easier. And while not all changes were great (MMM marble nerf, Campaign fort wall nerf, treasure box fatigue), the mass majority of the changes, additions, new content and new ways to play have made this game a much better place. Try to tell me gear scaling was a bad move, or that level sync hurt the game. Prove to me that increasing Exp on EPs/DCs was bad, or that lowering TNL's 50+ and lessening exp lost on death had a negative impact on the game. Explain to me how all jobs being able to TP burn colibri is worse then select jobs being able to TP burn weapons. This game is a much better place then it was three years ago, and no amount of one shot troll bomb topics can debate that fact.

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Arguing with Ziero is like arguing with a wall. His glasses may not be tinted rose, but they're tinted something.

The only thing my glasses are tinted with are the BURNING LIGHT OF TRUTH. But go ahead and pretend I'm wrong without even trying to say why. The playerbase is the same now as it's always been. And that's the truth.

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Does this actually have a point, other than telling us we're saying things we're not saying? How does anything you've highlighted change the fact that we believe SCs are skillful, and an important part of an efficient, well-balanced party? Generally, what we're arguing is that, post-ToAU, parties have worsened to a noticeable degree. What you're arguing is that parties sucked before ToAU, I get that, but what does excluding jobs, soloing, MPK, the amount of time spent seeking, and various burn parties have to do with that?

How was pressing a button at the right time in any way skillful? It was repetitive and slow and only effective with a specific party set up that greatly limited your options and abilities to get past one of the most boring aspects of this game. I've had SC+MB pts post ToAU, hell I've had SC+MB pts IN ToAU, and they only work when the mobs are IT, have decent Def/HP and only when you have three specific jobs that can exploit a mobs elemental weakness. But why do all that, when even in Qufim you could make a good 8-10k an hour with a TP burn style party. A good group of 4 melee a healer and a back up healer can tear through crabs and pugs with no problem when they're VT. Hell, the same tactic is used in Yuhtunga too, tear through mandies with a War/Mnk tank because he can help kill faster then a Pld. SC pts promoted overhunting, which was rampant back in the day and was one of the worst ways to get EXP. And to top it off, even back then, the vast majority of players didn't know their SCs. It took one player to set it up and all the rest had to do was follow basic orders. No skill involved.

And since you didn't get it, things like job exclusion are important because it was FAR worse back in the SC+MB days because you needed specific jobs. Today, since SC element isn't as needed, you can open the party up to more DDs. The amount of time seeking is important, not just because it was one of the OPs comments, but because it was one of the worst parts of this game and has been greatly lessened due to more open play styles in parties for more classes combined with level sync. And old school TP burns are important because back then, they were the way the best of the best got their Exp. The good players wouldn't sit there SC+MBing IT+ mobs, they'd head to sky and tear through weapons, go to KRT and crush bones, grab some Blms and blow the hell out of things in one shot. The Burn party style was pioneered by players who saw SC+MB set ups as ineffective and found a better way to gain exp. Easier, faster, more efficient and FAR more engaging then sitting there whacking the same mob for three minutes at a time for 200-250 Exp a kill. And if the *best* players felt it was better, who are we to blame their new technique on the ill-perceived decline of "skill" so many people bitch about today?

[Sekighara]

Originally Posted by DakAttack

It must be more difficult than that if it's something people can have trouble with.

It is about as difficult as hitting the random button in the boulder run in Resident Evil 4. Just like that game you get as many tries as you are willing to take. But unlike RE4 you can proceed with out it. So when a person watchs the text of you discussing it and everyone agrees and they announce thier tp like every one else. When you see the ws>ws>ws diagram we would assume that person would hit the premade macro they have. If they don't by the 4th try we just assume they don't care. So we stop doing it with them and do a new sc for two and then lo and behold they ws between the buffer time to allow a SC. No it is not hard, it is about as hard as say playing this game.

[Kailea]

Well in a way, the game was "better" back in the day, but that's only because that's when we where all taking our first steps ourselves. At the same time, the game is much more palatable. I would say, if I had not been so hard headed about DRG being my first lv75 job... it would not have taken me 3 1/2 years to get their -.-