[Kittyneko]

Originally Posted by Feba

Wait, wait, guys.

And as always, Feba goes for the quick hit below the belt.

Researching a game before playing it isn't looking up every single strategy to get to level 75 quickly.


I understand what OP is saying.

<skips a big wall of text>

That's how it goes with every game though, eventually.
At some point, when everything has been done, the original spirit kind of dies down. However it's all in a sense of aspect. At one angle you could think, that you have too many memories to bring it up to start new one, with today's generation of players (which as you described, are pretty much.. sigh.)

But looking at others too much will never rise your own spirit you put in the game. Every player sees a game in their own way; it's their fantasy. If you want to hold on to everything you've done and experienced, you will have to hold on to friends that you've made, Linkshells you were in (or have made also) etc.

Endgame is also a very important aspect. You're a level 73 Monk you say? I can only imagine how many things you haven't done yet in the game... So for your own personal adventure, you by far aren't done yet. If you can find it in yourself to somehow get back into it, and get further in your conquest, you might find that you're not "mentally" done with the game yet.

I just got back from an unplanned break since before January. Can't let the damn game go, even though for me, I feel the same as you, however I haven't and won't analyze it in supposed technical details. It's my game, and I play it as i want.. and if it changes we will have to accept it, and be one of the first to change and adapt it.

And that is pretty much how you can make endgame a part of your adventure too. By staying on top of the game and in a right group of people, you can be one of the first to explore new events, missions, etc. Without anyone being able to look them up online somewhere.

[Maju]

I agree with a lot that was said by Karinya and others near the end of this thread and I do symphatize with the OP about a lot of the things he said.

Many posters were quick to point out that leveling does not present a challenge of any magnitude, yet when you compare the average players of pre-ToAU to post-ToAU, you'll notice a dramatic decline in ability to function in a party. Obviously it is too hard for some people. I personally imported the game long before the EU release, moved to WoW in the CoP era and returned with ToAU, but once again quit before WotG and the difference in player attitudes and skill levels was quite daunting.

In the old days, people would make sure they had food and up to date gear, after my return people would wear whatever they had lying around in their mog houses and there was a new trend; the PL. Back in the old days you'd struggle to find someone incompetent past L50, when I returned people were so used to PLs holding their hand they could not operate without one. Back in the old days all the good players had most of the SC chart memorized, when I returned the chart was nearly useless and even in lower levels where SCs actually still mattered, nobody cared.

After my return, I was always trying to fight the new trends appearing in the game. Instead of giving up on PLDs in favour of NINs, I experimented with ways to make PLDs work better by adjusting my gear to the healing capacity in the group and in this way achieving much greater damage output than PLDs of the past. When TP burn started taking over all exp groups, I once again tried to adjust my PLD to a new role instead of simply leveling "the big three" of WAR, MNK and NIN and went for a damage/support healer setup. This worked less well and eventually I realized PLD will never be an efficient merit job and moved on to NIN and eventually quit in disgust over the lazyness, incompetence and overall moral decay taking over the game.

I quit WoW and returned to FFXI for the same reasons I eventually ended up quitting FFXI for good for. In WoW, instead of grouping up, people solo a lot because it's more convenient and also faster. Many, even in this thread on an FFXI board, seem to agree that soloing is a good thing. However, the results of this kind of game design are painfully obvious to anyone who has considerable experience in both games: WoW players were and are terrible even at level cap. When you can't reliably find competent people to run instances with, even at level cap, the game just isn't presenting a steep enough learning curve. Yet that is only one negative side effect, the other being the fact that in WoW people don't know each other as well and also behave much more anti-socially, commonly using each other as stepping stones rather than comrades.

For these reasons, I too, fear the casual gamer. Don't get me wrong, I hated many inconveniences in FFXI, among them the LFG syndrome, which I, being an European on a server with an almost dead EU population and playing fringe jobs, am no stranger to, however, to me the rewards were so worth it. I had a sense of accomplishment and there were real adventures to be had. Plus, leveling in a competent FFXI group with nice people was always infinitely more fun than grinding through trivial quests in WoW. So much more fun, in fact, that nowadays I feel physically ill trying to level in WoW.

PS. /wave at TheGrandMom. I still remember grouping with your mithra DRK in La Theine Plateau when I was still very new to the game.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Kittyneko

And as always, Feba goes for the quick hit below the belt.

Yes, pretty much; I enjoy pointing out hypocritical douchebaggery.

If you want to complain that people research things, don't research things yourself. You can't just say "oh, well my research is different!".

I researched FFXI before I bought it, and you think I didn't have an advantage over those that didn't? You think I didn't know more strategies, more places to go, more things to do? Even something as simple as knowing to use signet, and not throw out seals is a big help later.

If someone is using research to do something instead of figuring it out themselves, so be it. If you think that's a bad thing, that's your opinion, but you're an idiot if you're looking things up yourself while spouting off how bad it is.

[Kailea]

Thats the main problem with most MMORPGs.... soloing should NEVER be faster then grouping, its the whole of of a MMORPG group, do stuff, get stuff, enjoy

the latest additions to FFXI, have in all honesty, "fixed" the no soloing issue.

because if soloing is the fastest way to level...... then whats the f'ing point of even playing a MMORPG except to flaunt your e-peen

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Maju

PS. /wave at TheGrandMom. I still remember grouping with your mithra DRK in La Theine Plateau when I was still very new to the game.

/wave! OMG that was many many moons ago! LOL

[Fliegar]

Originally Posted by Kittyneko

And as always, Feba goes for the quick hit below the belt.

Researching a game before playing it isn't looking up every single strategy to get to level 75 quickly.


I understand what OP is saying.

<skips a big wall of text>

That's how it goes with every game though, eventually.
At some point, when everything has been done, the original spirit kind of dies down. However it's all in a sense of aspect. At one angle you could think, that you have too many memories to bring it up to start new one, with today's generation of players (which as you described, are pretty much.. sigh.)

But looking at others too much will never rise your own spirit you put in the game. Every player sees a game in their own way; it's their fantasy. If you want to hold on to everything you've done and experienced, you will have to hold on to friends that you've made, Linkshells you were in (or have made also) etc.

Endgame is also a very important aspect. You're a level 73 Monk you say? I can only imagine how many things you haven't done yet in the game... So for your own personal adventure, you by far aren't done yet. If you can find it in yourself to somehow get back into it, and get further in your conquest, you might find that you're not "mentally" done with the game yet.

I just got back from an unplanned break since before January. Can't let the damn game go, even though for me, I feel the same as you, however I haven't and won't analyze it in supposed technical details. It's my game, and I play it as i want.. and if it changes we will have to accept it, and be one of the first to change and adapt it.

And that is pretty much how you can make endgame a part of your adventure too. By staying on top of the game and in a right group of people, you can be one of the first to explore new events, missions, etc. Without anyone being able to look them up online somewhere.

Though I really have nothing to add to the conversation, I just have to say it's been forever since I've seen you post last. Good to see you're still around.

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Maju

For these reasons, I too, fear the casual gamer. Don't get me wrong, I hated many inconveniences in FFXI, among them the LFG syndrome, which I, being an European on a server with an almost dead EU population and paying fringe jobs, am no stranger to,

If you ever decide to leave WoW (which you inevitably will) and return to FFXI I'd suggest transferring over to Fenrir. Since my return I've found an EU Dyna, Limbus, Salvage, and Sky shell as well as a bunch of really friendly EU timezone players.

[Maju]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

If you ever decide to leave WoW (which you inevitably will) and return to FFXI I'd suggest transferring over to Fenrir. Since my return I've found an EU Dyna, Limbus, Salvage, and Sky shell as well as a bunch of really friendly EU timezone players.

Actually, I already quit WoW before the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. That game has nothing more to offer me. I was on the top in both PVP and PVE and the game certainly hasn't improved since, anyway. As for FFXI, I'm pretty sure I'm done with this game, too, unless some drastic changes are made.

[TheGrandMom]

I think they'll focus more on FFXIV and not worry as much about tweaking FFXI. So I doubt any drastic changes will be made anytime soon. So hang out and wait for FFXIV!

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

I think they'll focus more on FFXIV and not worry as much about tweaking FFXI. So I doubt any drastic changes will be made anytime soon. So hang out and wait for FFXIV!

you never know.

Some games do make drastic changges to an online game before they realiease a new one, or some times right after. Like an expansion or something.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Takelli

you never know.

Some games do make drastic changges to an online game before they realiease a new one, or some times right after. Like an expansion or something.

Ever Quest comes to mind ;p

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Maju

Many posters were quick to point out that leveling does not present a challenge of any magnitude, yet when you compare the average players of pre-ToAU to post-ToAU, you'll notice a dramatic decline in ability to function in a party.

No you won't. People have always sucked in parties. Even long before ToAU came out the hardest part about leveling was finding competent players to party with to make use of simple strategies like SC+MB.

In the old days, people would make sure they had food and up to date gear, after my return people would wear whatever they had lying around in their mog houses and there was a new trend; the PL. Back in the old days you'd struggle to find someone incompetent past L50, when I returned people were so used to PLs holding their hand they could not operate without one. Back in the old days all the good players had most of the SC chart memorized, when I returned the chart was nearly useless and even in lower levels where SCs actually still mattered, nobody cared.

Bull. Crap. In the old days players sucked just as much as they do now. People have always had gimp gear, no food and abused Power levelers. Always. There was no golden time when everyone tried their best and held hands and sung kumbaya, there have always been a few good players and a LOT of gimps who get in your way. It's true back in the old days all the good players knew their SCs, and today the good players still do. But the majority of players couldn't figure them out for squat, it's the same now as it is then. But people keep blaming ToAU and TP burns saying they've made players dumb because they're easy to Exp in. Well people have always been dumb and TP burns certainly aren't the reason. Especially since TP burns require more attention then a SC+MB pt because they go so fast. You can't /afksandwhich when mobs die in 30 seconds or less because people will know. But when you spend 3 minutes fighting one mob and your idiot SC pt takes forever to get TP, you're literally sitting there doing nothing.

People need to stop wearing those damn rose colored glasses, they always mess things up when you look back.

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

I think they'll focus more on FFXIV and not worry as much about tweaking FFXI. So I doubt any drastic changes will be made anytime soon. So hang out and wait for FFXIV!

Some of the biggest changes to FFXI have come from this past year, while they were hard at work on XIV. I doubt we'll see any major shift in focus any time soon since both teams are capable of working on their own games independently.

Also, I totally love how the OP came in, dropped a troll bomb filled with hypocritical complaints on us, then left never to respond to his own topic. Totally classy.

[Grizzlebeard]

Ziero, you need to stop responding like someone has insulted your mother when you're discussing FFXI. Way too antagonistic.

Anyway, since my return, I've noticed a marked decrease in the skill level of your average player also. I can only attribute it to the combination of level sync and bird camp exp. I've come across so many people with underlevelled skills, hopelessly out of date gear, no food, ninjas only voking and using shadows as opposed to their whole arsenal of ninjitsu, people being abusive when I turn down level sync parties 10-30 levels lower than I am on corsair, etc. Sure, there were lousy players back a few years ago but the fact is you learned who the odd ones were and tried to avoid them. Now, it's more like you remember the few good players you come across and hope you're lucky enough to party with them again.

[DakAttack]

I remember the decline of the SC very clearly. People came to the expansion in your traditional parties, willing to do SCs, but they realized they didn't need them, and that these enemies were easier than ever. I had quite a few parties fighting crawlers, the ones with the crazy breath attack, where we used a traditional set-up, but as time went on everybody wanted to fight imps, imps, and only imps, with the exception of anything else that happened to be in the area when there were no imps.

People seemed to associate efficiency with /nin, and attempted to ram it down the throat of every other party they were in, at any level. I think somewhere along the way, before I ended my subscription, they realized it didn't work that well. But, somewhere along the way, SCs were lost forever.

Somewhere in the 50s, players start their frenzied grind of easy experience. I remember when people progressed at a steady pace, but, after the expansion, they all leveled as if SE were shutting the whole game down the next day. I remember seeing those unskilled players who you had to carry through a long party gaining levels like they fell out of the sky. I know they progressed that quickly because the ToAU camps didn't ask them for the coordination they didn't have, or the timing they didn't have, or the accuracy or damage output they didn't have. All you have to do now is engage, keep your shadows up, use your WS when you have it, and somebody is guaranteed to kill it. That tactic doesn't work in Bibiki Bay, or moon.

There's definitely a difference.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Ziero, you need to stop responding like someone has insulted your mother when you're discussing FFXI. Way too antagonistic.

Anyway, since my return, I've noticed a marked decrease in the skill level of your average player also. I can only attribute it to the combination of level sync and bird camp exp. I've come across so many people with underlevelled skills, hopelessly out of date gear, no food, ninjas only voking and using shadows as opposed to their whole arsenal of ninjitsu, people being abusive when I turn down level sync parties 10-30 levels lower than I am on corsair, etc. Sure, there were lousy players back a few years ago but the fact is you learned who the odd ones were and tried to avoid them. Now, it's more like you remember the few good players you come across and hope you're lucky enough to party with them again.

But the problem is that's how it's always been. I've partied with people in the 60s using weapons 30 levels underskilled. I've had half naked Wars with Gswords who wouldn't voke in Kuftal. I had a Thf using a Kclub IN BIBIKI BAY ON GOBLINS. And this has nothing to do with ToAU making people stupid as they were stupid LONG before ToAU came out. Nostalgia is something that skews the mind, makes it hard to remember things as they really were. And it irks me greatly when people say "remember how great it was back then" for any topic when in reality it wasn't that great.

When I look back on how it used to be, I remember the days of loldrg. I remember how nobody wanted a Thf in a party past 60 because Drks could do their "job" better then them. I remember how if you weren't a Rng in bibiki, a Mnk in KRT or a War in Sky you would be LFG for days at 75 because no one wanted you. I remember 6k an hour being great Exp and chain 5 being a rare and amazing event. I remember where if you wanted a big mob dead you'd just throw more Rngs at it. How Plds couldn't do anything in Endgame or high lvl exp because Nins were more efficient. I can remember all the bad things people looking through those rose colored glasses seem to ignore, but no one else seems to want to remember the truth.

For every complaint about how people "only focus on Imps" because they're easy, people have been doing the same exact thing with Crabs, Crawlers, Bats and Beetles. Mobs that are easy to fight, easy to kill, and best taken when they're low IT/high VT for maximum kill speed and exp per hour. The only thing ToAU did wrong was create a place to level that was so perfect, past a certain level there is no other competition. ToAU didn't kill SC+MB, it was dead in endgame leveling long before that. Arrow burns, Axe burns, Bone parties, Mana Burns, none of these relied on the "skills" people so fondly remembered. But these were the best forms of Exp long before the little pink bird and purple demons popped into play. But because these best of the best parties were so restrictive by their very nature, the player base cried out. And in response SE gave everyone an area with monsters almost every job can kill for incredible exp per hour.

ToAU did not dumb anything down, it just let more people and more jobs Exp in a more efficient way. The TP burn party has always been around, and it's always been the best, at any level, when you have a good party. I've seen horrible TP burns crash and fail because of stupid players, just like I've seen traditional SC+MB parties burn to the ground because idiots couldn't follow basic commands. Stupid people have always populated this game and they've always leeched their way to 75.