[Spazz]

Although this subject as been brought up by my friends and family many times, I completely understand both sides of the argument. But lets face facts... take ANY ... ANY MMORPG that has been going for 7 years and try to show me that the original gameplay and concepts still hold true to this day. Everquest, Final Fantasy, World Of Warcraft, etc ... all have changed so much over the years that they are damn near completely new games. Sad. But fact.

As for the whole, "FFXI current ways taking over FFXIV" . . . . Think about that one. Fresh new game. Fresh new start. EVERYONE will be new. EVERYONE will have to learn. So instead of getting mad, EMBRACE! You will be able to be apart of the original wave of gamers that corrupts a new world!

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Huck

I'm frustrated with this game.

I started playing at the NA launch after being an active researcher online since it was released in Japan, I had my 2nd job almost to 70 when the cap raised to 75.

The level cap was 75 at NA release.

And not to sound too condescending, your ability and desire to dump large chunks of your life into a video game may change as you grow older. Unless you're Ricky Schroder.

I appreciate the criticism of games being dumbed down overall and aimed at the lowest common denominator in order to achiever maximum revenues, WoW being a perfect example, but making something hard to the point of being sadistic and unenjoyable except to a handful of people is never going to be the recipe for a long future.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Sekighara

Well OMGWTFBBQKitten let me save you some time

It to easy to get experience.

OK then, solo to 75. No dual boxing a healer, no PLing friends, no besieged/campaign, no one to raise you if you die. You can pick any job you like starting from level 1 and you can use FoV. No parties.

Show me how "easy" it is. Because clearly after blowing dozens of reraise hairpins and and jumping for joy when i hit level 66 on BST, I missed out on how easy all of this was.

People use guides as crutches instead of explorering.

- People refuse to leave proven camps because of guide
- People do not bothering remembering detailed facts

So people use guides. So what? If we're talking about experiencing a single player game spoiler-free, that's one thing. This is a community game, people like to be on the same page and be functional, is that a bad thing?

I bought a guide for Pokemon Platinum. I'm not a stranger to the series, I've just been away a while from it. Its not like there's some epic plot I'm ruining for myself here, I just want to know the ins-and-outs of breeding and various other details so I don't waste time. There's still plenty of room to explore when I want to.

Same goes for FFXI. Have you EXPed in Site Riverne #A01? Den of Rancor? Pso'xja? I have, why haven't you? There really wasn't even any data on soloing BST in Riverne until I got curious and then that got the ball rolling for others that tried it and liked it and posted thier findings, too. There's my tiny contribution to the BST world. I EXPed there and made it work.

As for people being stupid, they've been stupid "back in my day" when all the endgame we had was Zilart. Where the fuck do you think "lolDRG" came from? The highly informed? Did you let in DRGs to HNMLSes back then? Not bloody likely. I remember those days all to well and looking back, people were just as stupid then as they are now.

People were poorly informed then, too, I remember people screaming at the mages for not bringing oils and powders to Ifrit's Cauldron. I remember the Ash Dragon and bombs destroying us all because someone got caught and died. Shit happens, deal with it. Unprepared people are bad, yes, but people who issue blame and point fingers aren't much for group morale, either. Chuckle it off and move on. Its just a game.

[Kafeen]

Originally Posted by Kailea

Besides whats wrong with looking stuff up you dont know?


"Hey we are about to fight that dragon for 2-3 you coming?"

"oh ok.. never fought him before going to look him up to see if i need to watch out for anything"

*fights*

Victory!


ok.... what was sooooo wrong about that? ;p

I find the above much more desirable then that same person running into the fight, yelling LEROY JENKINS! and killing everyone.

I suppose that depends if you want to role play or not. If all you're interested in is moving along to the next stage of the story or making your character stronger looking things isn't a bad thing. For those who want to experience the game as an adventurer they may want to find out what challenges a fight brings by experiencing it for themselves rather than reading someone else's account, formulating your own strategy for a fight rather than just doing the same thing as someone else.

Personally if I'm going into a fight with a party then I will look things up first. If its a fight that's soloable and I'm not going to be wasting other people's time if things go wrong then I'll see what the fight has to offer myself first.

This applies to more than just NM fights too. Why just go out and level in the same place as everyone else rather than going out to explore and finding your own spot to level. I did this just after ToAU was released. Me and a bunch of friends ran around Mamool Ja Training grounds seeing what was good to level off. The EXP wasn't as high as TP burning Sea Puks in Bahflau Thickets but it was a lot more fun.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Huck

*sniped rants*

I'm going to have to disagree with just about everything you ever said. The hardest part about leveling up was always forming a party, and that's not right. So SE fixed that. And raise the amount of possible Exp you can gain in a certain amount of time is a good thing, because exping sucks. It's not a challenge, it's a hurdle, and it's only purpose is to slow you down when you're trying to get to the real meat of the game.

People, including yourself, have been doing as much research, both in game and out, as possible to figure out everything they can about this game. However, reading that info doesn't give you an instant win or an easy trip to 75. I started playing before the NAps2 release and people were just as dumb then as they are now. It wasn't a skill to know where to camp, it was experience because people were there before.

And then you go and complain about whiners who sit and wait in Jueno for a pt by telling them to solo Exp? I mean, seriously? Your first complaint was that too many people soloed for Exp yet there you are saying that's what people should do while waiting for a pt? Really?.

When I was just a wee newb to this game, and I pt'd with people who had previous 75 jobs, I *never* looked at them "with honor and respect, someone skilled" because any moron can get 75 and have good gear. Since this game is all about grouping, it's not hard for completely incompetent players to leech off others and get drops their EG shell is overflowing with.

Nostalgia is a horrible thing. When you look to the present and see major improvements as a step backwards, maybe you stop and ask yourself "was it really that great back then?" Chances are, more times then not, you'll realize it really wasn't.

Originally Posted by hexx

I swear, people sacrifice fun for efficiency and laziness now, thats my only complaint. Rapidly lvl up now, skill up later seems to be some of the mentality running rampant too.

To some people, efficiency *is* fun. And this is nothing new, there have been "efficient" people cherry picking party setups and members for as long as this game has been out. The method of efficiency has changed over the years, but the practice will *always* remain the same.

Originally Posted by Takelli

Yea, the game fell to "Gain 75 ASAP then go skill up, then we can do end game!"

...the game has always been a race to 75 for most people. I know this because I was one of the few who specifically refused to rush, and everyone let me know how silly it was to go slow.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

OK then, solo to 75. *snip*

...the dude was just recapping the OP's post in a shorter, simpler version.He doesn't actually agree with any of it.

When push comes to shove, only the names and numbers have changed in this game, but the basic ideas that run everything still exist. Everyone wants to get the fastest Exp as possible in the shortest amount of time. Whether it be getting 8k an hour in a Bone-burn with 4 mnks, a rdm and whm 6 years ago or tearing through Colibri for 30k an hour with Drg, Sam, War, Brd, Rdm, Cor. The trends may change, but the goals have always been the same. Because when push comes to shove, getting exp sucks.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Kafeen

I suppose that depends if you want to role play or not. If all you're interested in is moving along to the next stage of the story or making your character stronger looking things isn't a bad thing. For those who want to experience the game as an adventurer they may want to find out what challenges a fight brings by experiencing it for themselves rather than reading someone else's account, formulating your own strategy for a fight rather than just doing the same thing as someone else.

Personally if I'm going into a fight with a party then I will look things up first. If its a fight that's soloable and I'm not going to be wasting other people's time if things go wrong then I'll see what the fight has to offer myself first.

This applies to more than just NM fights too. Why just go out and level in the same place as everyone else rather than going out to explore and finding your own spot to level. I did this just after ToAU was released. Me and a bunch of friends ran around Mamool Ja Training grounds seeing what was good to level off. The EXP wasn't as high as TP burning Sea Puks in Bahflau Thickets but it was a lot more fun.

That's what I do actually, I only look stuff up, if I cant a ford to mess up, or I am with others, and don't want to mess up on their account, and yes leveling in new places or "out of the norm" places is fun as hell ^.^

[TheGrandMom]

I made a thread to discuss whether using a guide/online info/etc is ok or not. I also extending the question to offline gaming:

Guides...Do you use them or not?

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

The level cap was 75 at NA release.

Wrong. Shattering Stars (aka Genkai 5) was added in the Dec. 16, 2003 update.

It also added a bunch of over-level-70 spells, WS quests (the weapon of trials ones), the abjuration NPC, Moongate key, SAMs getting a free 300% TP when they 2hour (it originally only reduced the cost to WS with TP you already had), increased Astral Flow duration and zero perp cost, quivers, tree saplings, Mog House furniture storage, main nation chocobo riding at level 15, and probably most significantly, drastically restricted Sneak Attack positioning.

I remember some of those changes were already relevant to me at the time they were made, although I think I hadn't yet leveled THF enough to actually use yokodama when it existed. (More recent players probably don't even know the term - why should they? It refers to a tactic that only existed in 2002 and 2003.) Obviously furniture storage was a lot more significant before storage NPCs, mog lockers and satchels. And chocobos at 15 were a big deal since outpost teleports wouldn't be added for a couple more years IIRC.

The NA release date was Oct. 28, 2003 (according to Wikipedia), although at the time it was PC only; NA PS2 release was in 2004, so if you started on PS2, that might explain why you remember the level cap "always" being 75. (And yes, some NA PC players looked down on PS2 noobs, from the height of our awesome six months of experience.)

I doubt any NAs made it to 70 in the month and a half between NA release and G5, though; the only English-speaking high-level players I knew of back then were importers.


Anyway, if you look through the update history on the official site, which goes back to October 2003, you'll see that a lot of things, and not just the level cap, have changed in this game since NA release (the Oct. 21, 2003 update was a week before NA release, and some things like auto-translate and language indication in search comments were obviously intended to prepare for it).

Fenrir, Dynamis, the TP returned from multihit WS, Subtle Blow, Spirit Link, guild points, signed synthesis items, /recast, merit points, sushi, ENMs, shields blocking more often but only part of the damage, NPC fellows, double weakness, ninja toolbags, rare/ex drops from Lizzy and some other low level NMs, Limbus, exp rings, Diabolos, monsters depopping to reduce MPK/trains, elimination of the exp nerf for BSTs using jugs, Spirit Surge, Assault, Besieged, mog lockers, ISNMs, diorite, chocobo raising, Hasso/Seigan, BP Rage/Ward, the /tell sound, Salvage, the Hall of Trans -> sky warp, Sentinel and Rampart enhancements, Quick Draw dispel/sleep and recast reduction, Nyzul, Signet improvements, elimination of World Passes, chocobo racing, Goblin Bounty Hunters, Einherjar, DM/CoP/AN reward changing, 2h weapon changes and grips, puppet whm/blm heads, Pankration, Campaign, automatic Rent-a-Rooms, Repose, macro books, official windower, Monomi, Retaliation, Sekkanoki, Elemental Siphon, QD charges and increased Stratagem charges, Sublimation, Selbina/Mhaura nomad moogles, ZNMs, Reprisal, Pianissimo, mythic weapons and WS, Level Sync, higher level gear usable under level caps/sync, Fields of Valor, treasure caskets, undispellable Reraise, MMM, Afflatus and new WHM spells, Composure and Enspell IIs, Mog Satchel, augmented items.

That's only a partial list, of course.

I don't regret most of them, except for the decline of skillchains and increased use of hate-bouncing in exp. Neither of those is attributable to players being more clueless, though - rather, players *correctly* realized that the new tactics and mob choices are more effective than the old ones, and also call for less skill on the part of other party members to carry them out (which, as a practical matter, makes them more likely to be done successfully with a pickup full of random strangers). I think SE should adjust exp values to encourage players to exp on more difficult enemies where SC+MB and hate holding would be more beneficial, as they were in the CoP era, but I can't really blame post-ToAU players for playing by the post-ToAU rules, even though I like the resulting playstyle a lot less.

[Kailea]

yeah Wiki is right, it was released OCT 31, 2003 I remember that day, because by the time I got the game installed updated, and made my character (had my name though of week in advance) I was exploring Windurst for the first time at around... midnight ;p

[Coinspinner]

Originally Posted by Karinya

And chocobos at 15 were a big deal since outpost teleports wouldn't be added for a couple more years IIRC.

Less than a month later actually. It was the reward for defeating the Twinkling Treants during the holiday event. But it was years before using it was practical.

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Karinya

The NA release date was Oct. 28, 2003 (according to Wikipedia), although at the time it was PC only; NA PS2 release was in 2004, so if you started on PS2, that might explain why you remember the level cap "always" being 75.

I started a few weeks before I joined these forums so October 2003 sounds about right. Not sure why I thought the level cap was 75 back then although it's safe to say I was nowhere near 60 let alone 75 until the early part of 2004 or so anyway. It was kind of hard back then on Fenrir to do anything meaningful as the EU population was tiny and many JPs generally took great pleasure in making things as hard as possible for you, namely following you around and ga'ing the Kazham key mobs to prevent you getting anywhere near the place. That said, the Twinkling Treant event built many bridges when they saw EU/NA willingness to die multiple times alongside them to do something for the server, especially as Fenrir was the first server to beat the event.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

That is one thing to look forward to in FFXIV - they can't pull that "Oh no, here come the NAs" crap again. It will only happen with the 360 version now and I really didn't see anything different in attitude about 360 players.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

That is one thing to look forward to in FFXIV - they can't pull that "Oh no, here come the NAs" crap again. It will only happen with the 360 version now and I really didn't see anything different in attitude about 360 players.

oh I did.......


"achievements! I am doing this and this for achievements achievements achievements "


I heard this alot.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Kailea

oh I did.......


"achievements! I am doing this and this for achievements achievements achievements "


I heard this alot.

I've heard that fairly often...

I've gotten into a party of 3 xbox players, and they argue that some of them have better achievements than the rest.

"Oh well you have ABC achievemen? Well I have XYZ achievment, so I'm better!

Or the ever so famous...

"I have an X-box achievement! What about you?"

...

"No? Hahahaha! I own you at everything!!!!!1111oneone111 Elvevon!"

I've even seen a few PS3 players get into heated arguments about achievements. I usually try to stay away stuff like that, but then again... Thats what the Blist if for

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Takelli

I've heard that fairly often...

I've gotten into a party of 3 xbox players, and they argue that some of them have better achievements than the rest.

"Oh well you have ABC achievemen? Well I have XYZ achievment, so I'm better!

Or the ever so famous...

"I have an X-box achievement! What about you?"

...

"No? Hahahaha! I own you at everything!!!!!1111oneone111 Elvevon!"

I've even seen a few PS3 players get into heated arguments about achievements. I usually try to stay away stuff like that, but then again... Thats what the Blist if for

yeah playing games because you want to have fun is over.... now its all about achievements or trophies, yeah some people might find that "fun" but I don't.