[Raydeus]

Problem is for many people easy means casual friendly. And SE is definitely aiming for that.

To me easy (and boring) is being able to kill mobs with zerg tactics and zerg tactics alone. But for others easy means lack of grinding.

So it depends on what you would call easy. It also depends on the amount of content and the battle system they will implement.

I just hope combat requires skill and strategy (and fights are long but rewarding) with advancement fast enough to be able to accomplish something with only 2-3 hours to play a day (since I work long hours.)

[Elwynn]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Making fighting IT++ mobs worth fighting again, with the added effect of a return to SC+MB tactics.

(Yes please)

And they don't even really have to raise IT XP. Increasing the time allowed to make chains would work too. Either way, though, the side effect would be that manaburn XP would go up, whether from more base XP or from ability to chain 6+ on pets. Not that that's a bad thing.

[Kaziel0]

I think part of the thing the posters here are trying to solve with an XP increase isn't just the return of the SC+MB but also finding a place for tanking in current meripo. I mean, if given a choice between a PLD or a WAR or SAM for a good meripo party, I know of no one who would slow down the party just for a PLD. Thus, for those who only have PLD at 75 (or really any of the other jobs which don't fit within the standard meripo scene), the return of not just SC+MB, but the standard party would be highly beneficial.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Kaziel0

I think part of the thing the posters here are trying to solve with an XP increase isn't just the return of the SC+MB but also finding a place for tanking in current meripo. I mean, if given a choice between a PLD or a WAR or SAM for a good meripo party, I know of no one who would slow down the party just for a PLD. Thus, for those who only have PLD at 75 (or really any of the other jobs which don't fit within the standard meripo scene), the return of not just SC+MB, but the standard party would be highly beneficial.

its mainly the PLDs fault for this to be honest... a PLD/NIN or a PLD/SAM using 2-H sword, can be a decent DD if they would try.

[Kouper]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Problem is for many people easy means casual friendly. And SE is definitely aiming for that.

To me easy (and boring) is being able to kill mobs with zerg tactics and zerg tactics alone. But for others easy means lack of grinding.

So it depends on what you would call easy. It also depends on the amount of content and the battle system they will implement.

I just hope combat requires skill and strategy (and fights are long but rewarding) with advancement fast enough to be able to accomplish something with only 2-3 hours to play a day (since I work long hours.)

Im fine with a little zerg here and there... I mean, if it takes strategy to kill any piece of basic wildlife, Im bugged. No bird, or crab, or rabbit, or even bears and wolves take much strategy. It might take better tools, but stupid critters should be stupid critters.

Basic soldiers, a little strategy is fine, but again, I'd like to feel like my character is stronger then your average soldier, even if he is a beast man.

Officers of an enemy army, notorious monsters, or even really big monsters, dragons, notorious villains. Those should take strategy.

I think of of my favorite fights in wow was Vashj, she was just a whore. And if one person didn't do their job right, everyone was pretty much borked. However, she is an incredibly powerful being and leader of her race, she should be incredibly strong. Finding boars out in the snowy wastes that compete with her troops for strength though..... thats just irritating.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Kailea

its mainly the PLDs fault for this to be honest... a PLD/NIN or a PLD/SAM using 2-H sword, can be a decent DD if they would try.

It depends on why you picked PLD in the first place.

While PLD can be a sort of kinda maybe a decent enough DD if geared properly old school players like me picked the job for the exact oposite reason. Meaning not wanting to be a DD but taking/mitigating hits instead.

So while it can kinda work it isn't the role I'd like to play, hence I quit playing PLD in xp parties as some many others did.






PS > Disclaimer : Don't bother talking about how higher dmg helps keeping hate better, that's pretty obvious and not the point of my post.

[Ziero]

Make IT(+) mobs give more Exp, make it so a SC+MB both extends the chain timer limit and lowers enmity costs and give players a few safe camps to pull IT mobs and they'd "fix" a lot of exp problems imo. Plds, Nin tanks, Blm and Smns would all benefit from higher level/slower kill exp pts, as long as they could get comparable exp to the average TP burn, it would be helpful to the game.

However, after stating that, people would still focus more on the much easier, much more accessible TP burn style of Exp. It's far more engaging, far more demanding, much less risky and much easier to pick up and go then traditional SC+MB parties. Because any support job, any healer job and any four DD jobs can all gather together and let things rip, without the specific need for a tank, a healer, a nuker, a support job and two compatible DDs.

In the end, the exp gained isn't the only issue with the TP burn's dominance, it's the simple fact that an average TP burn pt is far easier to set up then the average SC+MB, IT(+) hunting party is. And even if they could gain TP at similar rates, people would still flock to the path of least resistance. But at least other players would have the option, and that's all that really counts.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

It depends on why you picked PLD in the first place.

While PLD can be a sort of kinda maybe a decent enough DD if geared properly old school players like me picked the job for the exact oposite reason. Meaning not wanting to be a DD but taking/mitigating hits instead.

So while it can kinda work it isn't the role I'd like to play, hence I quit playing PLD in xp parties as some many others did.






PS > Disclaimer : Don't bother talking about how higher dmg helps keeping hate better, that's pretty obvious and not the point of my post.

well in EXP PTs yeah PLD should be a tank, I am mainly referring to merit parties, or even Campaign, stuff like that where instead of a PLD sitting there bitching, they can ajust themselves and be a decent DD for those two things.

Now that I have DNC and DRG at 75, I am starting to work on PLD myself, and I love tanking, but I know at some point, when I get to merit parties, I will have to ajust, or just merit more on DRG

[Kaziel0]

Originally Posted by Saphiera

I am so excited for this game to be released for Beta (if they have one). I just hope it does not become too easy like most of the other MMO's out there. I hope they keep their standards and make an awesome game just like FFXI. "Appealing to the Masses" is not something I want FFXIV to be based around. I want SE to live up to their potential and make a great game without "easy" being implamented.

Easy and hard are somewhat subjective, so I can't really speak for that, but I can say that Square Enix is a business, first and foremost. Their job is making money, and making a game that doesn't appeal to the masses is no longer a valid approach.
Back in the day, you could make the game you wanted, and even if you didn't fit everyone's tastes because the market was small, so odds were even if you hit the mark you wouldn't make a fortune, but that was okay because games could be pumped out by four guys sitting in their garage, working on old computers.
These days, games cost some serious bank to make, and the idea of making something that falls into a small niche just doesn't make sense at all. This is especially true with how much WoW has grown the MMO market. If any other MMO came along and could reliably pull away even 10% of WoW's playerbase, that would mean no less than $180,000,000 a year, just from subscriptions. Obviously there are things which need to be paid off, like equipment to keep the servers running, paying the employees, etc. but that's still an insane amount of money, considering the players are also paying to buy the game itself.


Addendum: Doesn't mean everything has to be super EZ mode. WoW has proved that (as Kouper pointed out with Vashj). But at the same time, making a game that only appeals to 1% of your potential playerbase is generally a really bad business practice.

Originally Posted by Kailea

its mainly the PLDs fault for this to be honest... a PLD/NIN or a PLD/SAM using 2-H sword, can be a decent DD if they would try.

Decent, yes. Good, I doubt it. If you're putting together a PUG, only have one spot open, and you see a PLD/NIN and a SAM/WAR (or SAM/NIN or SAM/DRG, or whatever the current SJFotM is), why would you pick the PLD? Sure, if PLDs are all that are seeking, you'd take one over not going at all, but I know of few people who would take a PLD if a "real" DD was available.

My point isn't that it is impossible for a PLD (or really any other of certain roles) to DD, but that they are like the fat kid at sports in grade school. Picked only because their aren't any other options available to those picking.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Difficulty & Notorious Options for Level Sync
How about adding difficulty (Tough, Very Tough, and Incredibly Tough) and notorious (normal & high) options to level sync parties?

Difficulty Option
Automatically changes the level of monsters which would normally yield XP (EP+) once engaged
(probably needs some restrictions)

Normal Notorious Option
Monster becomes a notorious monster with increased HP, increased XP reward, and increased time for the experience chain once engaged

High Notorious Option
Same as normal notorious option except the monster also gains a 2 hour and becomes unsleepable once it is used

This doesn't necessarily bring back a dedicated tank and SC+MB, but it sure would make parties more interesting.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Kouper

Im fine with a little zerg here and there... I mean, if it takes strategy to kill any piece of basic wildlife, Im bugged. No bird, or crab, or rabbit, or even bears and wolves take much strategy. It might take better tools, but stupid critters should be stupid critters.

Basic soldiers, a little strategy is fine, but again, I'd like to feel like my character is stronger then your average soldier, even if he is a beast man.

Officers of an enemy army, notorious monsters, or even really big monsters, dragons, notorious villains. Those should take strategy.

I think of of my favorite fights in wow was Vashj, she was just a whore. And if one person didn't do their job right, everyone was pretty much borked. However, she is an incredibly powerful being and leader of her race, she should be incredibly strong. Finding boars out in the snowy wastes that compete with her troops for strength though..... thats just irritating.

This... This is how I feel that game play should be as well. A rabbit shouldn't beable to kill you, especially if it checks as easy prey *Glares at the rabbits in the dunes*. Make them harder, but don't make them so that it takes a long time to fight them.

Humanoids should be harder than a rabbit, especially in a game. One swing, and the rabbit falls, the humanoid can dodge, and block, and even harm you more than a little rabbit can...

[Feba]

If you want to go for realism, you'd never catch up to the fucking rabbit.

Let's not go there.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Make IT(+) mobs give more Exp, make it so a SC+MB both extends the chain timer limit and lowers enmity costs and give players a few safe camps to pull IT mobs and they'd "fix" a lot of exp problems imo. Plds, Nin tanks, Blm and Smns would all benefit from higher level/slower kill exp pts, as long as they could get comparable exp to the average TP burn, it would be helpful to the game.

However, after stating that, people would still focus more on the much easier, much more accessible TP burn style of Exp. It's far more engaging, far more demanding, much less risky and much easier to pick up and go then traditional SC+MB parties. Because any support job, any healer job and any four DD jobs can all gather together and let things rip, without the specific need for a tank, a healer, a nuker, a support job and two compatible DDs.

In the end, the exp gained isn't the only issue with the TP burn's dominance, it's the simple fact that an average TP burn pt is far easier to set up then the average SC+MB, IT(+) hunting party is. And even if they could gain TP at similar rates, people would still flock to the path of least resistance. But at least other players would have the option, and that's all that really counts.

While this will "fix" the issues with Sc+Mb, there will still be people going to the Tp burn parties as that you havea said before. But because it adds more options, it will also add more people to the game, and that might split the game into Tp, Mana burns, and Sc+Mb parties, and that could cause in game issues for the players as well.

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Feba

If you want to go for realism, you'd never catch up to the fucking rabbit.

Let's not go there.

I'm not saying go for pure realism. I am just saying that a rabbit shouldn't be harder than a human, unless it was a mutated rabbit like thing or something like that.

[DakAttack]

They should let us build camps that the AI's random pathing would avoid. I've seen a few enemy camps, complete with roaring fires, so why can't we get our own?

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Kailea

its mainly the PLDs fault for this to be honest... a PLD/NIN or a PLD/SAM using 2-H sword, can be a decent DD if they would try.

A PLD/SAM with a GS can get some decent DD abilities out of his subjob. A DRK/SAM with the same GS can get some decent DD abilities out of his main job *and* his subjob and completely wipe the floor with the PLD/SAM.

This also requires a second whole set of gear on top of the gear PLDs are already trying to acquire for their endgame roles. But even if you get good DD gear, you'll still fall behind jobs that have DD JAs and traits *and* DD gear - in other words, DDs.


As for the rabbit issue, if a Level 40 rabbit and a Level 40 orc aren't about the same degree of dangerousness, one of them has been assigned the wrong level (or the wrong stats for its level). It's bad enough people avoiding tonberries and hippogryphs and flocking to exp on colibri and imps - if you *deliberately* underpowered some mob families relative to their level (while keeping the same exp system), the same phenomenon would be even worse.

There is some argument for capping the level of non-dangerous-looking mob families, but SE decided not to do that and have the same mob family from Carrion Crows to Nightmare Crows and from Forest Tigers to Byakko. I don't really mind - it's not as if there aren't enough high-level-only families around (all the ToAU beastmen, demons, greater birds, cactuars, tonberries, manticores, wyverns, all the sea mobs, kings, the ToAU hnms, dvergr, vampyr, gears and chariots, soulflayers, wamoura, IIRC gnoles, probably many others I'm leaving out - not counting reskins and WotG beastman models. And of course unique bosses.)


Speaking of all these mob families hardly anyone fights, if people want to see less monotony and herd-following in exp, I've advocated before for an exp bounty system, extending the current family bonus system to increase the bonuses awarded to rarely-hunted mob families on each server. Each week the bounties for each mob family would be calculated (along with conquest tallies or something) and published on a website, through an NPC in game, or both. Monsters that aren't hunted would see higher and higher bounties until people started on them; monsters that were hunted a lot would see less, although possibly with a x1.0 minimum. (I don't personally think there is anything wrong with allowing the multiplier for overhunted families to go even lower, but SE might be reluctant to make a change that would be a partial nerf, even if only for the most sheeplike players). Over time values would fluctuate making some players develop new camps to exploit the highest bounties. Mob families that can only be hunted from difficult-to-reach camps (uragnites and sea mobs come to mind) might maintain high bounties consistently if only static/LS parties could hunt them effectively. Some rare families can be hunted in level capped CoP zones - a much more practical suggestion after gear scaling. A few families like Empty can *only* be hunted in level capped zones.

Certain very rare families like mimics, yovras, and the HNM-only families could be exempt; it wouldn't really matter because you can't hunt them for exp no matter how hard you try.

Not many people go to, say, the old deep Kuftal wyvern camp, but if the bounty on wyverns was up to x1.6 (applied after the base exp cap but before chain bonus and exp rings, ideally), that might change. How much bounty would it take for people to be willing to try exp on tonberries? Malboros? Taurus? Uragnites? The red dragons in Zhayolm? Soulflayers? Peistes? IDK exactly, but I'd sure try it at x3 and probably well before then (if I could find a good WHM or maybe SCH, because you're going to need it for all of those families; the one thing the least-hunted families have in common is that they hurt, either in HP, or in negative status that lasts, or both). Concerns about downtime and whether or not you can fit in more DDs to kill faster kind of go away if you're going to earn double or triple exp per kill before rings (and bounty can also substitute for infini-chain - you can still get *some* chain bonus even on IT mobs of particularly nasty families, and with enough bounty even killing VTs slowly would still be good exp.)

Things like scorpions, spiders, tigers, coeurls, and wyverns would be the low hanging fruit of this system - you could profitably exp on them with even a fairly modest bounty, if the camp wasn't crowded, but at the same time while they're certainly more dangerous than colibri, they're not in the league of the "un-expable" mobs (since they have all, in fact, been exp mobs in the pre-ToAU era). Mobs that are hard to kill with non-manaburns (e.g. slimes, ghosts, elementals, flans) would accumulate and retain large bounties unless manaburns became substantially more common - either way, BLMs would benefit.

The inherent nastiness of more dangerous and/or inaccessible mob families would be effectively balanced out by a kind of bidding process - how high does the bounty have to go before enough players are willing to exp there to drive it back down? - and which camps and party setups and strategies can earn you the best exp would change from week to week. It would bring a new dynamism and variety to exp that wouldn't just replace the best camps and party setups with better best camps and setups as past changes have tended to do, but make the very idea of best camp and party setup dependent on situational factors.