[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Coinspinner

That is the very opposite of my experience in WoW (also pre-BC). I tried forming parties, but nobody was interested. I did get invited to an instance once or twice on each character, and nobody knew what to do and the groups never made it more than halfway.

That's wierd. I remember how important CC was up through BC. There was a lot of discussion about Druid vs Warrior vs Paladin tanking, and people started to tank bigger groups. When DK came along CC died, because DKs have a dozen and a half AE abilities to use while tanking.

[Ketaru]

Honestly the game was harder back then. PLD rarely blocked and didn't have Dark Staff, Auto Refresh, Parade Gorget, updated Sentinal, gain TP from blocking, or keep TP while resting. WHM didn't have SCH SJ, Afflatus Solace, Divine Veil, Dark Staff, or Light Staff. We over hunted and struggled to gain TP without a BRD or SMN with Fenrir, but we still made it by with a RDM and double magic burst. Sometimes we even had triple magic burst parties with PLD, WHM, BLM x 2, RDM, and RNG, which were tons of fun for everyone. Certainly cannot forget playing PLD with Phalanx Rings, Defender, and Boiled Crab. I think most my TP came from getting hit.

This is part of it though that people are ignoring when we're asking why less and less people want to party, or need to cooperate within parties. You had to join parties back then to get EXP. Even if there was a Signet update, and even if there was FoV, most jobs were not powerful enough back then. It's also part of why it's not unusual for parties at lower levels to still resemble parties years ago. Because updates that had happened to jobs still have not come into play yet. Jobs getting stronger, however, is part of the natural progression with jobs developing. But for the most part, jobs have developed in such a way that they're stronger as individual entities rather than as groups. Even jobs that received relatively little updates to abilities or spells or job traits still have access to better gear that is easier to obtain now, or being able to use different subjobs.

A long time ago, people used to form whole alliances to hunt for coffer keys. These were the sorts of occasions where mass amounts of people would gather together. Today, you really only need 1 job at 75 that is capable of soloing (or know somebody at 75 that is capable of soloing). And you can get your own coffer key without the additional weight of having to get it for others. And today, virtually every job has devised a way to solo at least Easy Prey to Decent Challenge.

For example, consider Sekkanoki. Most SAM use it to self-skillchain when it could also be used to skillchain with 2 other people instead. But most people focus on how it improves the individual SAM. Same with BST's Snarl. You could use it to SA the BST, then the BST puts all that hate on the pet, but it got interpreted as a way to spam hate free WSs or a quick getaway tool when soloing.

We could go on with saying parties have to concern themselves less with placement now that BRD has Pianisimo. Or how /BLU surpasses any of DRG's prior available subjobs for soloing. Or how /DNC effectively closed the gap some between jobs that can solo and jobs that can't. Why care about pulling hate on DRK? By the time Dread Spikes wears off, the mob is already dead.

I can't think of any job update that was specifically designed to work in tandem, coordinating with other players. Look at the way the WHM update was talked about. It wasn't "How does this make us work better with SCHs?" It was "How does this make us better than SCHs?" In fact, several jobs are now able to self skillchain which, in a way, kind of makes a bit of a mockery of the concept of skillchains as cooperation between players.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Ketaru

Why care about pulling hate on DRK? By the time Dread Spikes wears off, the mob is already dead

Actually that's a rather large exaggeration there but the rest of your analogies were spot on =3

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Actually that's a rather large exaggeration there but the rest of your analogies were spot on =3

Oh is it now? Mobs die in about 30 seconds. Dread Spikes last for 60 seconds, and the recast is three minutes.

All it is is a game of timing.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

SC + MB was always about ignorance and fun. Not optimization. There was a need for a tank Pre-RotZ, but the potential for a TP burn existed.

Tanks were ignorant and saved their WS, cures, and JAs to grab hate back. None of us thought we might actually be able to build a pool of enmity which decayed slower than we built it. PLD used to start fights with Provoke and Flash. Now we start fights with Provoke, Flash, Cure, WS, and a job ability (Shield Bash, Rampart, Warcry, etc.) followed up by Provoke as soon as it is available.

Most people including myself until last night were ignorant of the power of Lv40+ PLD/DNC, WAR/DNC, RDM/DNC, DRK/DNC, MNK/DNC, and DNC/WAR for tanking: Why wont people do this?.

Parties knew they were over hunting for the melee, but they saw SC + MB as the answer. It provided big numbers, and it was fun. I know I absolutely loved 2 x BLM Blizzardga II.

I agree that all the updates haven't made SC + MB more attractive, but I argue that it never was significantly better or perhaps even better at all. The driving factor more than anything could have been respawn time if you did target T - VT. Perhaps we were just polite to take longer to kill things. I doubt the Cape Teriggan beach still supports more than one party very well. I know the two ends of Kuftal Tunnel don't.

Are there things which could make SC + MB more attractive? Definitely, but I think they require changing the game mechanics.

1. Make magic bursts generate less enmity (no CE perhaps)
That or open up the Raven set to BLM, SCH, and SMN. This is already -33% enmity, and tanks know how to build more enmity now.

2. Make the bonus from a magic burst larger (2 x DMG)
Hell BLM, SCH, and SMN could all melee and skill chain for themselves and then rest: Spirit Taker > Spirit Taker > Liquefaction > Magic Burst Fire.
lol ... Tank + BRD, COR, or RDM + 4 x BLM, SCH, or SMN ... yes, please!

3. Make it optional to use more than 100 TP on a WS (more SC)
This would require modifying how certain weapons work.

4. Make weapon skills scale perfectly with TP (124 TP = 1.24 x DMG)
This would dramatically affect spawned fights and battlefields.

What do you think? Why didn't we always TP burn? Was it ignorance, respawn time & camp competition, or were the updates necessary?

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

Mostly I miss playing with polite JP and NA players who weren't in a rush:

/t <BRD, RDM, DD> Good Evening. Lv53 Party (PLD/WAR, WHM/SMN, BLM/WHM) ni Kuftal Tunnel ikimasu. Team Up?
Yes, please!
/p Onegaishimasu ^^
/bow <p1>
/bow <p2>
...
/p Ready? Teleport: Altepa
hai
~
~
yes
/p Renkai ??? > ??? > Distortion > Blizzard II kudasai

I first started playing during NA release, and I found parties really good. However, I was playing both the tank and main healer with all other members usually JP. I miss the polite greatings, meeting for teleports, and setting up the skill chain and magic burst which was always performed flawlessly.

Um, JP parties still do polite greetings, form consensus on SJ, camp (and SC+MB at lower levels, sometimes), gather before heading out, etc. If you mess up SC+MB and say <I'm sorry.>, they tell you "Don't mind" (which means "It's ok, don't worry", in this context).

Heck, they still tend to take breaks en mass; if someone has to go to WC, the party just stops fighting for a few minutes.

The big difference now is that the Japanese players in general are really scared of us, and don't want to invite NA players or take NA invites if they can help it at all. When they do invite (or accept invite), though, it's still the same politeness and consideration.

NA players have progressively gotten more and more d/c prone right after they level up. Or, do wacky thing in party because "I have a PL." Semi-AFK is quite common, too--really noticeable when someone doesn't engage until 20 seconds into a fight.

I'm rather scared of random NA players myself... Most people are OK, but one bad apple in a party is more than enough headache for me.

[Raydeus]

You know how scared they are of NA when they invite you repeatedly to semi-static with them even though you don't even have your flag up or are leveling a completely different job. All that while 100 other NAs are lfp at the time.

Guess they rather be safe than sorry. Can't blame them.


I just wish I had more time to play, I passed up on many chances to get into pretty awesome JP semi-statics due to my lack of time.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

1. Make magic bursts generate less enmity (no CE perhaps)
That or open up the Raven set to BLM, SCH, and SMN. This is already -33% enmity, and tanks know how to build more enmity now.

2. Make the bonus from a magic burst larger (2 x DMG)
Hell BLM, SCH, and SMN could all melee and skill chain for themselves and then rest: Spirit Taker > Spirit Taker > Liquefaction > Magic Burst Fire.
lol ... Tank + BRD, COR, or RDM + 4 x BLM, SCH, or SMN ... yes, please!

3. Make it optional to use more than 100 TP on a WS (more SC)
This would require modifying how certain weapons work.

4. Make weapon skills scale perfectly with TP (124 TP = 1.24 x DMG)
This would dramatically affect spawned fights and battlefields.

1: Blm do need more - emity gear. They can uke more and deal more damage with it with out worry of pulling hate onto them selves.

2: Yes, that would be great. Melee Rdms where there to help start/end a SC, then put a MB in it. Or possibly even Watch a SC, then MB, then add their own WS, then MB off that again. I miss the melee Rdm days... (I remember actually being able to do that a few times in a decent party)

3: That does annoy me. I have 175% tp, and I either have to wait until 200, or it will only use the !00% tp mod. Using 175% should increase the damage by 1.75%, not 1%

4: Isn't that the same as 3?

I do have something to add to this as well. Doing a Sc+Mb should increase your Exp gain (Temparay by a certain amount depending on the total damage done, and increase how long you have to do a Exp chain).

If they added that, I really do think that Blms, Melee Rdms, and all the others would come back as well. Just as well as More skilled players, who can actually SC, AND MB in end game when its needed.

[Armando]

3. Make it optional to use more than 100 TP on a WS (more SC)
This would require modifying how certain weapons work.

4. Make weapon skills scale perfectly with TP (124 TP = 1.24 x DMG)
This would dramatically affect spawned fights and battlefields.

These two are just pretty implausible. #3 opens up the possibility for every DD to Meikyo Shisui, the only difference would be that they wouldn't be able to conjure up 300 TP magically as their 2-hour. #4 is impossible because it results in either 3-6k damage WS at 300 TP or really gimped WS at 100 TP.

I will agree with #1 and #2 though probably not with a x2 multiplier. x1.5 or x1.66 would be more than enough. #1 would be simple enough to do too - just make MBs generate Enmity based on their pre-MB-bonus damage.

In general the mechanics in place can't be messed too much with or you'll break something. It'd probably be better to indirectly encourage SC/MB by ramping up the EXP given for IT mobs, as well as extending the window for EXP chains at Lv.50+ is Lv.2 Skillchains and MBs are used, and at Lv.65+ if Lv.3 Skillchains and MBs are used. Probably with an additional condition of the MBs taking off at the very least a minimum % of the mob's HP to avoid getting time extensions with dummy spells like Tier 1s or enfeebles.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Originally Posted by Armando

These two are just pretty implausible. #3 opens up the possibility for every DD to Meikyo Shisui, the only difference would be that they wouldn't be able to conjure up 300 TP magically as their 2-hour. #4 is impossible because it results in either 3-6k damage WS at 300 TP or really gimped WS at 100 TP.

Yep, quite flawed, but I've come up with one not quite as bad as 3 or 4.

5: Add a Lv15 or Lv30 stance (job ability with 5 minute duration and 1 minute recast) to WAR which causes weapon skills to consume only the 100 TP increment at or below the player's current TP. Overrides Retaliation.

Using a weapon skill with...
...100-199 TP consumes 100 TP
...200-299 TP consumes 200 TP
...300 TP consumes 300 TP

Pros:
- Most TP based jobs would use /WAR with a good tank
- Only gives most jobs one sub-optimal self skillchain
- Doesn't detract too much from Meditate, Sekkanoki, and Meikyo Shisui
- Adds to the dynamics of weapons with TP latents and bonuses

Cons:
- Overpowers SAM/WAR
- THF, RNG, and COR loose /NIN for pulling

Of course this could be given to THF, DRG, DRK, or NIN. DRK seems silly, but they could use a stance which would make PLD/DRK a good tanking option. THF isn't bad, but it would hurt RNG and COR. DRG hurts everyone almost equally. I really wanted to move DD away from /NIN.

This probably still isn't the best option for getting DD to SC more, but I think it is a step in the right direction.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Oh is it now? Mobs die in about 30 seconds. Dread Spikes last for 60 seconds, and the recast is three minutes.

All it is is a game of timing.

And Dread Spikes only absorbs half your HP from the time you cast it, so it depends on how hard you get hit.

[Kaziel0]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

Using a weapon skill with...
...100-199 TP consumes 100 TP
...200-299 TP consumes 200 TP
...300 TP consumes 300 TP

Nope. Not a good plan in that incarnation. For that, the "ideal" setup would be to find two WSs which SCed from your chosen weapon, then save up to about one strike beneath 200 TP then WS. You'd drop down to just under 100 TP, then the TP generated from your WS would push you up over 100, allowing you to self-SC, which I think is the opposite intent of this (yes, it would be more SCs but less working with others which seems like a step in the wrong direction).

Instead, I think it would work better if it was something like this:
Using a weapon skill with...
...100-149 TP consumes 100 TP
...150-199 TP consumes 150 TP
...200-249 TP consumes 200 TP
...250-299 TP consumes 250 TP
...300 TP consumes 300 TP

This way, unless you're a specialized class that was designed to SC off of themselves (SAM and BLU, and technically DRG if you use your 2H), you can't, but at the same time, you're not leaving yourself empty when you WS.

Addendum: Even with your ideas, Armando is pretty much spot on when he says that you need to boost XP gained on hard mobs, and honestly IMO, weaken XP gained on not so strong mobs because even with my idea, it really does encourage TP Spam parties even more. Yeah, sure you could do SC > MBs with your ideas, making it even easier to do a lot of WSs sounds like a sure-fire way to not only encourage the current playstyle, but basically give those who do TP-Spam a pat on the head.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Kaziel0

Addendum: Even with your ideas, Armando is pretty much spot on when he says that you need to boost XP gained on hard mobs,

I think Karinya was the first major advocate for increased exp for harder monsters on this site, to put credit where it's due. Actually, if I understand him correctly, he wants the exp gain of more dangerous monsters to be increased relative to the weaker IT-VT's people tend to fight. (Which can be accomplished by making higher level monsters give more exp, or (better) exp bonus for tougher monster families, or less exp for IT- and VT+...) At least, that's what I'm agreeing with; there should be stronger incentive to fight harder monsters on a regular basis.

What SE has done, though, is an iffy minor buff to SC accuracy, while majorly boost DC/EP exp gain (twice) over the years. So far, it doesn't look like SE is interested in making more dangerous targets a better deal for exp parties.

[Raydeus]

Making fighting IT++ mobs worth fighting again, with the added effect of a return to SC+MB tactics.

(Yes please)

[Saphiera]

I am so excited for this game to be released for Beta (if they have one). I just hope it does not become too easy like most of the other MMO's out there. I hope they keep their standards and make an awesome game just like FFXI. "Appealing to the Masses" is not something I want FFXIV to be based around. I want SE to live up to their potential and make a great game without "easy" being implamented.