[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

I was talking about getting gil for campaign services the same way SeeDs get a salary according to their rank. But if you want me to explain how I think the job would work I have some (a lot of) ideas about that as well.

You do get a salary for participating in Campaign. It's called Allied Notes. You also get money for killing mobs while under the effect of Signet in Conquest Points. And you get paid by the Empire while you have Sanction on in the form of Imperial Standings. These are all payments you earn by doing, it's just up to you to transfer it into Jeunoean Currency through the numerous gear exchanges.

Originally Posted by jenova_9

I remember a quote from someone in FFXI, especially what's ongoing now:

"I am currently on ffxi everyday and have 2 lvl 75 jobs and still feel lonely. It's funny that getting one job to level 75 barely gets your foot in the door. Most linkshells won't even recruit you if you don't have two level 75's. And then if you don't have sea or salvage access -- you'll get to here about how awesome they are at least lol.

Nonetheless, I paid the price of belonging and got sea and salvage access and 2 level 75 jobs all in about 4 months. Only to find that most linkshells are really just cliques of elitists who have no desire whatsoever to help you but are really just using you to farm ancient currency and to gear up a few select leaders in the shell who have about 2-3 times the dkp as all the other members.

I am currently looking for mature friends who feel as I do, that "together" is a forgotten term in ffxi.

I agree that FFXIV will provide a new opportunity for people to truly work together. Knox has started the ball rolling and I personally sent him a pm. The only problem I see down the road is a complete lack of loyalty. Not only will just about anybody say they "want to join" but most won't stay with a single group for more than a month."

I don't know where you found this quote, but they're definitely doing it wrong. They're looking for friendship and compatriotism from hardcore endgame players? That's down right ridiculous. Most hardcore endgame linkshells make you just another face in the crowd and have a high turnover rate. That's how they get things done, when they lose one member they add another. Not for fun or friendship, but because they need the bodies. If you want loyal caring friends, you find them by playing the game for *fun*, not grinding to endgame and joining the big bad shells who only care about loot.

p.s. I greatly disliked FFVIII. Maybe it was the characters, maybe it was the ridiculous plot twist, maybe it was the mediocre setting or maybe it was because I was shooting monster with a sword, probably all of the above. But in the end, it was one of the few FF games I played all the way through yet still greatly disliked. So the less about it there is referenced in XIV the better as far as I'm concerned.

[Telera]

I find it sad that 'loot' and 'friends' can't go hand in hand. Even more sad that a group of friends (read: around 6-10) isn't enough to do these things most times. One of XI's biggest flaws. Loot and friends goes together easily in my Kin on LotRO, so it isn't fucking impossible, it's just that people in XI don't do it. Or can't, because of the asinine amounts of people you need for some things. We're all a bunch of casual players who don't have any great and pressing love for Endgame in my Kin, but if someone wanted the gear, we could put a run together pretty easily. And because we're friends, not a bunch of tools using one another, there's a need over greed mentality, and none of these retarded fucking points.

Why you should ever need more than a single alliance for mere gear is beyond me. (Other than the obviously stretching gear thin on purpose to make an arbitrary timesink.) It isn't just the community but the system SE built, too. It isn't conducive to forming any connection to the people you're with. They probably meant it to be, but as I've always said, the more you force people into arbitrary grouping, the harder they're going to hate it. They'll do it, but they won't like it, and if they don't like it, they aren't even going to attempt to bond with those they're working with. Here's hoping XIV has learned a good bit from this pitfall.

I'm all for large scale battles in their proper place, but essentially cutting any smaller LS/group of friends out or forcing them to find others they have no attachment to is the root of the problem with our current endgame. Some people do endgame because they do find it fun, but they can't have fun, because they're stuck having to join these mass organizations for it where it's almost impossible to get a connection formed. There needs to be some form of endgame low-man battles for those who want that kind of challenge, but are not keen on being stuck in the faceless crowd, and just maybe we'll see an Endgame scene that isn't so disgusting even to those in it.

[Ziero]

Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul?

[Tickmeoff]

Originally Posted by Ziero

maybe it was because I was shooting monsters with a sword

Excuse me sir, you need to consult your SeeD training manual and learn how your Gunblade actually works.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

For SeeD in XI I had the idea of a Gunblade specialist type of SeeD, but more heavily focused on GF Summon/Junction/Draw skills (zero MP involved) and less focused on melee skills but still tweakable enough to work either way.

This actually sounds pretty awesome.

As long as Aura never exists in any form.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Telera

I find it sad that 'loot' and 'friends' can't go hand in hand. Even more sad that a group of friends (read: around 6-10) isn't enough to do these things most times. One of XI's biggest flaws. Loot and friends goes together easily in my Kin on LotRO, so it isn't fucking impossible, it's just that people in XI don't do it. Or can't, because of the asinine amounts of people you need for some things. We're all a bunch of casual players who don't have any great and pressing love for Endgame in my Kin, but if someone wanted the gear, we could put a run together pretty easily. And because we're friends, not a bunch of tools using one another, there's a need over greed mentality, and none of these retarded fucking points.

Why you should ever need more than a single alliance for mere gear is beyond me. (Other than the obviously stretching gear thin on purpose to make an arbitrary timesink.) It isn't just the community but the system SE built, too. It isn't conducive to forming any connection to the people you're with. They probably meant it to be, but as I've always said, the more you force people into arbitrary grouping, the harder they're going to hate it. They'll do it, but they won't like it, and if they don't like it, they aren't even going to attempt to bond with those they're working with. Here's hoping XIV has learned a good bit from this pitfall.

I'm all for large scale battles in their proper place, but essentially cutting any smaller LS/group of friends out or forcing them to find others they have no attachment to is the root of the problem with our current endgame. Some people do endgame because they do find it fun, but they can't have fun, because they're stuck having to join these mass organizations for it where it's almost impossible to get a connection formed. There needs to be some form of endgame low-man battles for those who want that kind of challenge, but are not keen on being stuck in the faceless crowd, and just maybe we'll see an Endgame scene that isn't so disgusting even to those in it.

My LS (A Social LS/Newbie help) is actually fairly well when it comes to loot, and friends. Everyone in my LS, actually helps out one another, and doesn't ask for anything in return. When I was after Utsusemi: Ni, I got the Archer's Ring instead on my Run, and they let me have it. When I did it again, for some one that was just after money, got two scrolls of Ni, he let me have the second scroll, as he knew I was after it.

But most LSs are not like that. Too bad they are not though. Hope that FFXIV will be more about helping others, rather than having more verteren players, using others as pawns...

The end game thing with FFXI I think was supposed to help others group together, and band together, while helping others out, and you getting rewards yourself as well. But just like teh Dynamis thing though. I went to three of them. I was told I would get my SAM relic from them, as well as a few Ancient Currency. When I got you may ask? As soon as the first piece of sam Relic dropped, I was booted, and I was killed because the healers refused to heal me. Now I stay away from Dynamis, and anything to do with any end game. I play to enjoy the game, and I just was hoping to get a few relic gear, but I got booted from the Alliance when teh relic piece dropped. But, now I just hang out with my LS friends, and hope that they don't get dragged into the endgame shit, just to have their asses handed to them, like what happened to me.

As for the largscale battles. Thats what Campaign is for. We have 5 lvl 75s in teh LS atm, who don't like how much time end game takes, and a few lvl 65+, and we form an alliance, and we take on entire campaign battles by ourselves(With the NPCs, and the few people that show up that aren't in alliances.). Sure, we wipe a few times, but we just do it for fun. We've even done that for the Beseiged, but most avoid it, due to the huge exp loss in the Ls.

[odjnlinus]

Originally Posted by jenova_9

If I didn't "/sea all 17-19" and saw a 19 without a subjob, and if I didn't ask them if they needed help with subjob items, they would have not gotten their subjob that day. They thanked me after it was done.

A good search option and flag option that helpers and the needy can use to find each other, without having to go down
every possible list and zone and reading people Comments for clues to what they might need help with (if they need help at all), would save people the trouble of needing to shout in towns for help as much, and get things done sooner
based on the people that are seeking people to help.

there should be a worldwide search system that lets people flag themselves for needing some emergency help
(quest, mission, LB, SJ, Raise, etc. etc.) That would really improve things quite a bit within the community. Because
as things are now, there is a thick fog between helpers and the needy.

I agree here which is why I normally spent my time improving my skills and helping others, not to mention the fact that I can't make endgame runs bc of RL work. I've met a lot of people who main concern was to lvl all jobs to 75, obtain all relic gear, complete all missions, blah blah blah, but when it is all said and done, will they quit since they did what they wanted or now since they supposedly obtained all this knowledge spent the rest of their days in FFXI helping others?.

My last LS leader had a plan to get a minimal amount of people to 75 to do endgame runs, blah blah blah, but when most of the sackholders kept inviting newbs in the LS, he got pissed and broke the LS saying *it's ok to help someone but constantly having to do 2-3 Mission fight (a what 5 min fight at the most) a bunch of times was a bit not his style. So he moved to an endgame LS and that's all he does, doesn't help anyone, only hang around friends who play the game he knows in RL, blah blah blah.

When SE announced that they will attempt to make FFXIV more solo friendly or something to that extent I'm pretty sure a lot of people was like YAY now I don't have to wait 3 weeks for a run to be set up, blah blah blah, who knows anyway.

I have no idea what I posted but hopefully someone will understand it

[Kailea]

I have heard some endgame LSs do some thigns but lord that was cold/mean/a-holeish -.-

the only endgame shell I was in died once the leader and half the shell went to WoW, I tried going with them and did enjoy my time in WoW.... but eh I don't know -.- Was a good shell too, at least the leader was, he always understood if you could not make it alot, or if something came up suddenly and you had to go.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by odjnlinus

My last LS leader had a plan to get a minimal amount of people to 75 to do endgame runs, blah blah blah, but when most of the sackholders kept inviting newbs in the LS, he got pissed and broke the LS saying *it's ok to help someone but constantly having to do 2-3 Mission fight (a what 5 min fight at the most) a bunch of times was a bit not his style

That does get old and repetitive fairly fast. And the dang Delfutts tower run is worse. Especially when the people who you are trying to help keep dying, and the 75whm/blm tossed their key so they cant Tractor/raise -.-;

Originally Posted by odjnlinus

When SE announced that they will attempt to make FFXIV more solo friendly or something to that extent I'm pretty sure a lot of people was like YAY now I don't have to wait 3 weeks for a run to be set up, blah blah blah, who knows anyway.

Yes! I was like that as well. Its hard to get a group that is willing, and is good to do Prommy runs. And to get people who are willing to farm the animas with you as well. I've done the farming, and I helped teh people get the stuff, then they turn around and sell it for like 10k, after I spent like 4 hours farming for them.

But then... I usually just kick them from teh LS for taking other players for granted.

Originally Posted by Kailea

I have heard some endgame LSs do some thigns but lord that was cold/mean/a-holeish -.-

the only endgame shell I was in died once the leader and half the shell went to WoW, I tried going with them and did enjoy my time in WoW.... but eh I don't know -.- Was a good shell too, at least the leader was, he always understood if you could not make it alot, or if something came up suddenly and you had to go.

Yea, I did quit FFXI for about a month to play WoW. The community was fairly good(Unless you run into those hardcore fanboys, who when they challenge you to a duel, and lose, then bitch at you because you some how cheated, and follow you all over the place lol), but then it just turned into a grind fest. No story line? No thanks. And don't get me started on the PvP, and "Twinkers" Ugh XD

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Takelli

Yea, I did quit FFXI for about a month to play WoW. The community was fairly good(Unless you run into those hardcore fanboys, who when they challenge you to a duel, and lose, then bitch at you because you some how cheated, and follow you all over the place lol), but then it just turned into a grind fest. No story line? No thanks. And don't get me started on the PvP, and "Twinkers" Ugh XD

I will admit the story picks up alittle in RotLK and I got to watch a cool little cutsceen where a lot of horde and alliance died from the scourge ;p

and me and my LS....eerr guild leader now I guess ;p where talking about all the bad stuff FFXI had going for it, yet.....like a sick doggy..... I cant turn away from it ;p

I am taking a break from all MMOs right now due to work being alittle "bleh" but when I come back, I think it will be to FFXI and not WoW

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Kailea

I will admit the story picks up alittle in RotLK and I got to watch a cool little cutsceen where a lot of horde and alliance died from the scourge ;p

and me and my LS....eerr guild leader now I guess ;p where talking about all the bad stuff FFXI had going for it, yet.....like a sick doggy..... I cant turn away from it ;p

I am taking a break from all MMOs right now due to work being alittle "bleh" but when I come back, I think it will be to FFXI and not WoW
__________________

Yea. But I don't really play games that are just mostly grind fests. There has to be atelast some sort of story line to keep me interested in the game.

I know. I tried to leave FFXI as well, but nothing really replaced it. I was gone for four years, and never found a replacement, and every time I tried a new MMO, nothing would be any good.

WoW only got a story line in WOTLK, but it was still not much of a story.

[Kailea]

very true, same here, "nothing is like FFXI" main reason no other MMO keeps me interested...... well Monster HUnter does, but thats a different story ;p

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Telera

I find it sad that 'loot' and 'friends' can't go hand in hand. Even more sad that a group of friends (read: around 6-10) isn't enough to do these things most times. One of XI's biggest flaws. Loot and friends goes together easily in my Kin on LotRO, so it isn't fucking impossible, it's just that people in XI don't do it. Or can't, because of the asinine amounts of people you need for some things. We're all a bunch of casual players who don't have any great and pressing love for Endgame in my Kin, but if someone wanted the gear, we could put a run together pretty easily. And because we're friends, not a bunch of tools using one another, there's a need over greed mentality, and none of these retarded fucking points.

Loot and friends are difficult to go hand-in-hand when a franchise attracts children and teenagers, especially when any race can be any job. Yes, there is a downside to FFXI's job system after all. While its cool anyone can be any job, not everyone is skilled at just any job, yet can lay claim to items for having points and a job of the level to lot for those items.

Gameplay, in all honesty, can affect player attitudes somewhat. Audience, on the other hand, can affect other things. Being able to be any job directly impacts and diminishes the concept of need before greed. So does having a poor loot distribution system and no internal DKP, instead, SE thought players would be good little angels and capable of

Final Fantasy fans in general have no concept of roleplay, for example. Neither do the japanese, really. To both sides, RPGs are "about story" because they haven't played RPGs that make them think otherwise. Thats not to say there aren't a few here and there that understand the concept of roleplay, its just the majority grew into didn't grow into the genre the same way.

RPGs are really about character building, both in the gameplay sense and in giving your character a personality. Japanese RPGs don't generally follow the concepts of freedom and decisions that affect character growth, but rather set paths for cinematic storytelling. People bred on this style of RPG don't generally like that a particular decision may not be able to be undone or undone easily.

Essentially, you have a ton of people in FFXI (and WoW, for that matter) that were out of thier element from the very beginning. They come for the franchise and story/lore and loot, but not for community or roleplay.

An MMO is usually going to have to meet fans of both east and western RPGs in the middle on style. FFXI did its best in that regard, but I think in many ways its innovative job system is its own undoing. Some jobs are so popular they're a detriment to your experience and you may regret having levelled them at all. FFXI's "decisions" lie in mission rewards and meritting.

All that said, why I'm looking forward to FFXIV right now is for one reason and one reason only:

No one is coming in with a head start.

The Japanese will be there, but this time the game isn't really thier "turf." I'm sure there will still be plenty of players that bow and scrape before the japanese, but it won't have to be that way. I'm all for the cultural exchanges, but I do feel the western approach to MMO communities (excluding WoW, clearly) is far superior.

"Need before greed" needs a major comeback, as does the concept of REPLACING YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE PARTY. These were not hard concepts to grasp in Everquest or Ultima, and when the Japanese came to those games, they did conform to them and understood it.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Kailea

very true, same here, "nothing is like FFXI" main reason no other MMO keeps me interested...... well Monster HUnter does, but thats a different story ;p

I never played monster hunter... How is it? lol

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Takelli

I never played monster hunter... How is it? lol

I find it fun, no levels to worry about, very action oriented, even with the ranged weapons. There is not really much story, its main selling point is hunting monsters with friends, and making armor and weapons out of the monsters you hunt.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Kailea

I find it fun, no levels to worry about, very action oriented, even with the ranged weapons. There is not really much story, its main selling point is hunting monsters with friends, and making armor and weapons out of the monsters you hunt.

Hmmm... Maybe I wil check it out. Does sound interesting. Getting tired of all those games out there that are MMOs, but they all have level grinding. Even a few off line games are guilty of that.. *Glares at Dessegia*.