Deliberate level capping

[Icemage]

I just thought of an interesting extension of an idea that's already implemented.

Would it be possible to force FFXI to cap your current character level at a specific level, much the same way the Sprout and Guide Berets work, but for any players in your party?

Basically, give us the ability to "lock in" our level cap at a specific level for the entire party. People will gain levels, but will be treated as if they were still the same level when they level up (i.e. I'm level 45, but I invited a level 41 player. I force myself to drop to level 41 while in the party, and go out and XP. I gain enough XP to reach level 46, but am still treated as being level 41 while I'm still partying as far as XP loss, gain, abilities, spells, stats, etc. are).

I think this would GREATLY simplify forming a party, as you can effectively ask anyone at any level range that you're willing to party with as long as they have gear to match the requested level range, and are willing to drop down to whatever level you want.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

I dunno... basically what you'll end up with this:

1. Kazham Mandies from 25-53.
2. Wajaom Lesser Colibri from 53-75.

[Taskmage]

I'd like to be able to do this just to be able to recover lost challenges. I feel like I've missed something having never fought the Shadow Lord without some level 75s squishing him, but it's a pain to assemble a group in the appropriate level range. Also things like soloing the Warlock's Chapeau NMs at level 60. Can't do it anymore.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

dunno... basically what you'll end up with this:

1. Kazham Mandies from 25-53.
2. Wajaom Lesser Colibri from 53-75.

Would there be a exp penalty to players who are over the cap, similar to the way its done in CoP areas like Prommies and Phomiuna? If that were the case, I could this being done without unbalancing the game.

[Mhurron]

Would there be a exp penalty to players who are over the cap, similar to the way its done in CoP areas like Prommies and Phomiuna? If that were the case, I could this being done without unbalancing the game.

It would also kill the original idea. The entire idea is to allow parties with more then a 3 level gap work by lowering the effective level of the higher leveled players.

[Icemage]

I don't see why this would be horribly abusable - parties speed up at higher levels, not slow down. If you're worried about particular abuse, remove XP chain bonuses for anyone who is more than 5 natural levels above their cap. That leaves them enough incentive to join and help a friend without being debilitating, and doesn't break the game balance because they could probably make more XP doing stuff actually near their level.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Agreed, w/o severely strict rules you could have people dropping to very low level jobs and killing easy mobs for beastman seals as well.

[Taskmage]

This is the way the system currently works for level-capped exp:

Experience earned in a level-capped zone is either the xp you'd get if you were at your full level or 1/2 the xp you would get at your capped level, whichever is greater. I've never used my guide beret, but I assume it works the same way.

So, drawing from this ...

If you and your friend are both level 31 and kill a level 39 mob, you'd both get 192 exp.

If you and your friend are both level 34 and kill a level 39 mob, you'd both get 140 exp.

If your friend is level 31 and your natural level is 34, but you've capped yourself at 31, killing a level 39 mob together would still give your friend 192 exp, but only give you 140 exp, since 140 exp is what you'd get at 34 and it's more than half of what you're friend is getting.

If your friend is level 31 and your natural level is 36-75, but you've capped yourself at 31, killing a level 39 mob together would still give your friend 192 exp, but only give you 96 exp, since you get at least half of what your friend is getting and that's more than you'd get at your real level.

This is all assuming the two of you are in a 6 person party together.

Basically, under normal conditions if a party member is too high level for the mobs, everyone takes an exp hit. If the high level person caps themselves, they're the only person taking a hit in exp. If players could voluntarily cap their level at any time, I can't see anyone taking advantage of it under this system other than to help a friend out. For starters, it's way to complicated for most people to figure out the right level to cap themselves at so that they and the rest of their party get the best exp. Second, anyone who caps themselves is volunteering for subpar experience. Some is better than none, sure, but I think most people would hold out for a normal party rather than joining one 5 or more levels below them for half as good experience at best.

With the exp penalty nobody would use it. Without the exp penalty everybody would abuse it.

[Raydeus]

It would also kill the original idea. The entire idea is to allow parties with more then a 3 level gap work by lowering the effective level of the higher leveled players.

Sadly that's the only way I'd see this working.

Say you wanna help a friend and fill a spot in their lvl 30 party with a job you already have at 75, ok you can do that, but you wont get any xp or crystals from it (both could be exploited way too easily).

Even so, it would be a great thing for people who only wants to help their friends but it would be useless for any other stuff which works perfect to me.

If players want to help other players to get their parties going I'm 100% behind this idea, if you can get some of your friends to go help you xp a job then it's great, but they wont get anything besides some low level drops out of it.

[Taskmage]

I don't see why this would be horribly abusable - parties speed up at higher levels, not slow down. If you're worried about particular abuse, remove XP chain bonuses for anyone who is more than 5 natural levels above their cap. That leaves them enough incentive to join and help a friend without being debilitating, and doesn't break the game balance because they could probably make more XP doing stuff actually near their level.
Icemage

I think they only speed up at higher levels as you enter Aht Urghan. My average pickup party still makes a meh 6-8k an hour, which is probably about equal to what a good party below that level makes if you subtract the sanction bonus. A good meripo or tp burn can make a lot more than that, but it's also a lot more difficult and a lot of people can't pull it off.

I think a lot of people would do just what Sabaron said and freeze their levels in the late 50s or early 60s after getting key equipment and weaponskills and abuse the hell out of lesser colibri. This would also allow lazy people to entirely skip level ranges with camps or equipment they didn't like, which could make a lot of intermediate weapons and armor useless. Why not just stick to the level where Viking Axes and Rampage are in their prime?

Worse, I think this would further increase people's reliance on PLed parties. It's already depressingly common to find people in the 1-37 range who consider a PL to be a stardard part of the PT setup. What if they never had to grow out of that stage and advance to levels and camps that are impossible to PL effectively? I bet even without exp chains a PLed, DD-heavy party could compete in exp with a higher level one. Ye gods, the RMT would never leave the jungles and garliage until they were 75.

[Icemage]

XP parties at higher levels make more XP than the ones at lower levels in most level ranges. If Lesser Colibri are being exploited, then that's an indicator that it's way too easy an enemy, and the monster should be buffed.

I see your point about jungles/garlaige/etc. but you still make more XP at higher levels than at lower ones. Average PT at level 15 makes maybe 2-3K per hour. Average in the jungles around 25-30 bumps to maybe 3.5K per hour, perhaps as high as 4 or 5K with optimal gear and setup. The average keeps pushing up every 5-10 levels consistently - ToAU makes the process more pronounced because of Sanction, but it doesn't change the dynamics of kill speed.

As for powerlevelling, you could make it go away completely by applying a penalty to spellcasters who cast healing spells on players 10 levels or more below them. Give them Weakened status if they do it and you'd see the PLs pretty much vanish overnight I'd think.


Icemage

[DanteWolfWood]

XP parties at higher levels make more XP than the ones at lower levels in most level ranges. If Lesser Colibri are being exploited, then that's an indicator that it's way too easy an enemy, and the monster should be buffed.

I see your point about jungles/garlaige/etc. but you still make more XP at higher levels than at lower ones. Average PT at level 15 makes maybe 2-3K per hour. Average in the jungles around 25-30 bumps to maybe 3.5K per hour, perhaps as high as 4 or 5K with optimal gear and setup. The average keeps pushing up every 5-10 levels consistently - ToAU makes the process more pronounced because of Sanction, but it doesn't change the dynamics of kill speed.

As for powerlevelling, you could make it go away completely by applying a penalty to spellcasters who cast healing spells on players 10 levels or more below them. Give them Weakened status if they do it and you'd see the PLs pretty much vanish overnight I'd think.


Iemage

Thank you...thank you...I will be wishin, and waiting for that wonderful update. :p

[Icemage]

Agreed, w/o severely strict rules you could have people dropping to very low level jobs and killing easy mobs for beastman seals as well.

I'm not really sure why this is an issue. If you want seals... go play BST. You'll have more than you ever imagined you could ever use. People "abusing" this sort of system doesn't change the status quo - you can already abuse it in most level capped zones. It shouldn't change much in this respect.

---

Really the problem I'm trying to address here is the issue of how artificially difficult it is to find people of the same level and jobs. When you have a huge level range to choose from, it becomes much easier to form effective parties, and partially removes the wall that separates the 75+ crowd from everyone else.


Icemage

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Even without exp penalties being applied, there would still be some drawbacks to exp'ing solely in level capped mode. Your combat and magic skills would never go up beyond the deliberately applied level cap.

Soooo, you could intentionally stay in Kazham until level 53. But then you would have to go out of your way to skill up weapon skills, shield skills and magic skills before you could go on to the ToAU camps.

Add to this that you have to have gear ready for the deliberate cap. Lets say you were level 60ish. And had gear ready for 50 cap. But as the party is gathering, you find out that the much needed BRD or RDM is only level 40. Will the rest of your party be willing to get themselves kitted for 40 cap? How much time would it take to make that happen?

This option could add some freedom, but it sounds like a real pain to try and abuse it so you could ride it out to end game. People already get sick of seeing beetles and crabs level after level as it is. Would they be willing to work the same exact camp for 25+ levels?

Unless you were RMT. They already settle for exp'ing against low end Ts, and gain maybe 1 level a day. This sounds like the perfect way for them to replenish their ranks after mass bannings.

[Icemage]

Even without exp penalties being applied, there would still be some drawbacks to exp'ing solely in level capped mode. Your combat and magic skills would never go up beyond the deliberately applied level cap.

Soooo, you could intentionally stay in Kazham until level 53. But then you would have to go out of your way to skill up weapon skills, shield skills and magic skills before you could go on to the ToAU camps.

Kind of a secondary consideration, but also true.

Add to this that you have to have gear ready for the deliberate cap. Lets say you were level 60ish. And had gear ready for 50 cap. But as the party is gathering, you find out that the much needed BRD or RDM is only level 40. Will the rest of your party be willing to get themselves kitted for 40 cap? How much time would it take to make that happen?

The flip side of this argument is that you could also have people like me who have kit for all sorts of levels on a variety of jobs mostly available within 10 minutes. And bear in mind - these are people that you couldn't invite as things stand right now anyway.

This option could add some freedom, but it sounds like a real pain to try and abuse it so you could ride it out to end game. People already get sick of seeing beetles and crabs level after level as it is. Would they be willing to work the same exact camp for 25+ levels?

It's not meant to be a long-term solution for people gunning for 75. It's a way to get around the problem of there being not enough people within 3 levels of you to make a reasonable party. This is becoming harder and harder to do as more and more players hit end-game and leave the level grind behind.

Unless you were RMT. They already settle for exp'ing against low end Ts, and gain maybe 1 level a day. This sounds like the perfect way for them to replenish their ranks after mass bannings.

This is definitely a drawback, but you're also helping newer players - and frankly, every moment RMTs spend XPing is a moment they're not ruining the game in other ways. Their current tactics make slow progress - they're not going to magically get better at playing the game just because there are more party invite options, so I'd expect them to make no more progress under this setup than under the status quo.

In the mean time, new players and players pushing new jobs through lower levels are having an increasingly hard time finding enough parts of the puzzle to finish a good party, and that's a huge problem that would be fixed with this change.


Icemage