[little ninja]

Originally Posted by Macht

Games are built with what's called "fuzzy logic" this means the game does a bit of predictions on what a player is likely to do. The fuzzy logic also creates some gaps (Being able to successfully cast a spell after moving as long as you are at the spot were you started the cast before it ends, same with RNG's ranged attacks). So something that SEs system can't handle from the low transfer rate should not impact your system.
If your system is impacted then it's your system, I create asyncronous queries for over 30 databases at work all day long. If you think a computer pauses or skips because of a data transfer over the network then you got it all wrong. With asyncronous queries the only time the system pauses is when it receives a large chunk of data at once and it's incapable of handling.
As for the 1-2 mobs that's true provided that your are hitting more frequently then anyone else. I've had days were I've killed 4-5 mobs and was just under cap because my accuracy was bad for some reason on those days, then had days were it was 1-2 mobs because of good accuracy. The players successfully getting the cap with the 1-2 mobs are obviously better equipped then the rest and that right there is proof of it.

Then i can see why Besieged isnt so loved. My system is by far alot better then anything Gateway an Dell could ever build. or anything one could by from a local shop. An most of my system is built to the same specs ALienware would use. an sell for a ridiculous price. So if im experiencing some problems while in Besieged. id hate to see what everyone else is doing. Especiallly those players stuck on a Ps2.

The reason why i cant believe you macht is because i play with a watered down version. No weather effects, shadows. I turned everything on so i cant see actions i do, or actions others do. i have no chat running across my screen except for party. As well as a host of others. An yet i still experience lag problems in Besieged, or areas like D.A.

Lets face it, The FFXI servers were built in the mid 90's. THey cant handle large numbers. Its not my system, its the system im recieving data from. Yeah i know you work with sucha n such, are they 10 years out of date, which in computer years would equal 15 years. Nowadays i read about how new gaming servers can handle 10k-20k players. Thats not including the enviorments, or mobs. An i think back to me in D.A with 20 darters an 75 players freezing up.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Macht

Games are built with what's called "fuzzy logic" this means the game does a bit of predictions on what a player is likely to do. The fuzzy logic also creates some gaps (Being able to successfully cast a spell after moving as long as you are at the spot were you started the cast before it ends, same with RNG's ranged attacks). So something that SEs system can't handle from the low transfer rate should not impact your system.

Macht, your ability to spew completely off-base technobabble that you don't understand never ceases to amaze me.

Definition for fuzzy logic

People don't use fuzzy logic in game programming. Game programmers and designers sometimes use hueristics to anticipate player actions and determine approximate computational loads, but that's a completely unrelated topic to fuzzy logic, and in any case, neither one bears much impact on your system performance aside from an overall design viewpoint.

If your system is impacted then it's your system, I create asyncronous queries for over 30 databases at work all day long. If you think a computer pauses or skips because of a data transfer over the network then you got it all wrong. With asyncronous queries the only time the system pauses is when it receives a large chunk of data at once and it's incapable of handling.

System halts and pauses in asynchronous database programming most often occur when many users try to access and alter the same data simultaneously, causing resource lock (for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).

As for the 1-2 mobs that's true provided that your are hitting more frequently then anyone else. I've had days were I've killed 4-5 mobs and was just under cap because my accuracy was bad for some reason on those days, then had days were it was 1-2 mobs because of good accuracy. The players successfully getting the cap with the 1-2 mobs are obviously better equipped then the rest and that right there is proof of it.

I don't think anyone knows exactly how the XP formula is calculated outside of S-E. In any case, it doesn't much matter considering how little XP is gained.


Icemage

[Macht]

Originally Posted by little ninja

Then i can see why Besieged isnt so loved. My system is by far alot better then anything Gateway an Dell could ever build. or anything one could by from a local shop. An most of my system is built to the same specs ALienware would use. an sell for a ridiculous price. So if im experiencing some problems while in Besieged. id hate to see what everyone else is doing. Especiallly those players stuck on a Ps2.
The reason why i cant believe you macht is because i play with a watered down version. No weather effects, shadows. I turned everything on so i cant see actions i do, or actions others do. i have no chat running across my screen except for party. As well as a host of others. An yet i still experience lag problems in Besieged, or areas like D.A.
Lets face it, The FFXI servers were built in the mid 90's. THey cant handle large numbers. Its not my system, its the system im recieving data from. Yeah i know you work with sucha n such, are they 10 years out of date, which in computer years would equal 15 years. Nowadays i read about how new gaming servers can handle 10k-20k players. Thats not including the enviorments, or mobs. An i think back to me in D.A with 20 darters an 75 players freezing up.

Fair enough by the same token, I can't believe you either. Working with a system I've maticulously built and made sure parts were very compatible with eachother, I can play Besiege with full effects and have no lag problems. Well until recently but I stupidly did got on an installing spree so I'm sure a program I installed is the culprit of my degraded performance.

It becomes very painfully clear to me when I run this game on 3 systems of different quality and have seen how Besiege works on them. Another out-of-date PC I have in it's 12th year that I built needs me to strip out all extra graphical stuff because it can't handle it. If your system has problems I would question it's component and their compatibility along with potential software that's on the system.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Icemage

(for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).

This phrase just made my day much more fun. Since I can't use emoticons here all I can say is ROFL.

[Vyuru]

Also, for people who say they can't hit the mobs, huh? I hit 2/3 of the time with my SMN and my lowly 234 staff skill, with no accuracy gear, no food... nothing.

As a level 67 dragoon with capped polearm, (forget what the cap is), and 7+5+3+5+5+10 = +35 acc in gear, AND eating sushi (squid or sole), and my +acc job trait, I can hit the beastmen mobs under 50% of the time, I want to say my accuracy is more in the 40%+ region, which as a melee is unacceptable.

This was against a level 5 undead swarm BTW, I'm sure the Mamool Jas are even more evasive.

I can hit the pets just fine, they are more like high VT-IT exp mobs to me, but if I can fight a pet how much easier can a merited level 75 kill one?

A level 50 or below melee is useless with a very few exceptions. I can do more damage to the undead swarms by going in as drg/rdm and cure bombing the skeletons, though after the magic update this doesn't seem quite as effective and I am seeing alot of 0s now when I cast Cure III on undead.

A lower level mage IS useful because they can stay on the sidelines and cure the people there, while the mages with more hp/mp can be in the thick of the battle curing the tanks.

And besieged really isn't worth the time for me right now. yeah it's fun, but the outcome of besieged does not hinge on whether I participate or not, and since besieged can last for up to 2 hours, I am not inclined to stay that long, if I know a besieged is wrapping up, and I could use some exp/IS, I'll just pop in during the last 15 minutes, toss some cure IIIs and buffs around, and recieve max rewards.

I do agree that afk players should not be in there taking up space that a person who is there can use, I don't agree though with a level requirement for besieged, but SE should adjust it somehow so that everyone can contribute.

I rather liked the level appropriate fort idea that someone had posted, everyone gets put into a fort (say one fort is for levels 1-10 and so on) and the beastmen have to get past the forts before they can go into the city, once they are in the city besieged happens like normal, but while in the forts you are fighting in a level specific place where you can actually contribute.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Macht, your ability to spew completely off-base technobabble that you don't understand never ceases to amaze me.
Definition for fuzzy logic
People don't use fuzzy logic in game programming. Game programmers and designers sometimes use hueristics to anticipate player actions and determine approximate computational loads, but that's a completely unrelated topic to fuzzy logic, and in any case, neither one bears much impact on your system performance aside from an overall design viewpoint.
System halts and pauses in asynchronous database programming most often occur when many users try to access and alter the same data simultaneously, causing resource lock (for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).
I don't think anyone knows exactly how the XP formula is calculated outside of S-E. In any case, it doesn't much matter considering how little XP is gained.
Icemage

Yes, I do tend to use wrong terminology at times. Quite frankly it's a result of it constantly being used wrong around me. I do not catch when I do it so my mistake on that. Very cheap shot to take, but whatever.

And no asyncronous queries are pass-through commands. They do not lock resources because they are telling the system to make a temporary image/copy of the resources. A bridge for the little lady to cross, not record locking which yes does slow everything down.

[Dyvid]

SE has already stated they are not going to have a level limit in besieged in a recent interview. They want everyone to be able to enjoy it. As far as the AFK ppl in whitegate you'll just have to learn to deal with it. Until SE opens up the Imperial Whitegate we only have 2 big town zones to run around in. Try moving your home point from the MH to the fountain in the middle.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Macht

Yes, I do tend to use wrong terminology at times. Quite frankly it's a result of it constantly being used wrong around me. I do not catch when I do it so my mistake on that. Very cheap shot to take, but whatever.

It wouldn't kill you to take 15 seconds to double check your terminology when you talk about technological topics, especially when trying to draw analogies to loosely related areas like game programming that you're not well-versed in.

And no asyncronous queries are pass-through commands. They do not lock resources because they are telling the system to make a temporary image/copy of the resources. A bridge for the little lady to cross, not record locking which yes does slow everything down.

[technobabble on]
Are you sure you do this for a living? Because I do, and none of your statements make any sense.

Pass-through queries on a server don't automatically replicate data. In fact, the exact opposite is true - they instruct the server to perform the operation server-side and pass the results back to the client, as opposed to sending a copy of the data to the client for computation. Using a pass-through query versus a client-side query doesn't really affect whether or not you have record locking, it just changes the conditions under which the information is locked.

You can lock records just as easily with a pass-through query as with a client-side query, depending on what sort of locking scheme you're using. The main differences are whether you choose to sacrifice network bandwidth and client processor time, or sacrifice server computational power.

This isn't to say you can't use an asynchronous query to replicate data server-side and perform your computations on the replicated set, but that functionality is not implied in a pass-through query.
[/technobabble off]

---

Long story short with respect to Besieged:

Yes, the lag in Besieged has a lot to do with the number of players in the zone.

System performance is, of course, always an issue. If your system isn't at least "average", particularly for a PC that's weak in the video card department, you'll see a lot of lag as your computer fights to stay on top of what's happening. But the PS2 and XBox360 have a standard amount of computing power, and the game is designed to run smoothly on that hardware.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Square-Enix has placed a hard cap on the amount of information the server sends to each player, and that limit is regularly exceeded, which causes the servers to "drop" data like damage notifications, special effect notifications, or pretty much anything else. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen myself just drop dead in the middle of nowhere, with nothing in the damage logs to indicate what killed me. I run a very close to cutting-edge system, with a solid broadband connection. The bottleneck in Besieged, for me, is not my computer, nor my internet connection.

That leaves the FFXI servers as the root cause; many times I'll start attempting to cast a spell, not see any effect on screen or in the log, but attempting to repeat the action a second later gives me the "You can't do that right now." message which indicates that the server is already aware that I'm casting the spell.

It's not really a limit on the PS2 so much as the requirement that the game run acceptably for users on 56K dialup that hoses the process the most. You simply can't transfer that much information without overloading a dialup user (causing their modem buffer to overload and eventually disconnect them from their ISP).


Icemage

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Icemage

It wouldn't kill you to take 15 seconds to double check your terminology when you talk about technological topics, especially when trying to draw analogies to loosely related areas like game programming that you're not well-versed in.
[technobabble on]
Are you sure you do this for a living? Because I do, and none of your statements make any sense.
Pass-through queries on a server don't automatically replicate data. In fact, the exact opposite is true - they instruct the server to perform the operation server-side and pass the results back to the client, as opposed to sending a copy of the data to the client for computation. Using a pass-through query versus a client-side query doesn't really affect whether or not you have record locking, it just changes the conditions under which the information is locked.
You can lock records just as easily with a pass-through query as with a client-side query, depending on what sort of locking scheme you're using. The main differences are whether you choose to sacrifice network bandwidth and client processor time, or sacrifice server computational power.
This isn't to say you can't use an asynchronous query to replicate data server-side and perform your computations on the replicated set, but that functionality is not implied in a pass-through query.
[/technobabble off]
---
Long story short with respect to Besieged:
Yes, the lag in Besieged has a lot to do with the number of players in the zone.
System performance is, of course, always an issue. If your system isn't at least "average", particularly for a PC that's weak in the video card department, you'll see a lot of lag as your computer fights to stay on top of what's happening. But the PS2 and XBox360 have a standard amount of computing power, and the game is designed to run smoothly on that hardware.
If I had to guess, I'd say that Square-Enix has placed a hard cap on the amount of information the server sends to each player, and that limit is regularly exceeded, which causes the servers to "drop" data like damage notifications, special effect notifications, or pretty much anything else. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen myself just drop dead in the middle of nowhere, with nothing in the damage logs to indicate what killed me. I run a very close to cutting-edge system, with a solid broadband connection. The bottleneck in Besieged, for me, is not my computer, nor my internet connection.
That leaves the FFXI servers as the root cause; many times I'll start attempting to cast a spell, not see any effect on screen or in the log, but attempting to repeat the action a second later gives me the "You can't do that right now." message which indicates that the server is already aware that I'm casting the spell.
It's not really a limit on the PS2 so much as the requirement that the game run acceptably for users on 56K dialup that hoses the process the most. You simply can't transfer that much information without overloading a dialup user (causing their modem buffer to overload and eventually disconnect them from their ISP).
Icemage

Yes, I do this for a living. I don't recheck my stuff because I don't to often have the time since I just check on here between the times the system completes it's tasks or requests additional info from me. When I write something big it takes a while to get it published due to that. I may not explained it so well but it seems you were getting at what I was saying, to an extent.

For not seeing the data that is not an issue with Square Enix directly. It's an issue in the manner of the data beind transfered over the internet. As it's been established before instead of the slower transfer rate of a TCP connection the game establishes a UDP connection for play. This connection is tremendously faster but doesn't care at all about lost data, since everything to our character is server side lost data to the player means a potential message that might not show up or potential command not being received.

In either case that only accounts for missing data, in no other way then seeing a message stating "You started a spell" or related information. Outside of that how the game operates is quite often your system.

Just to point out, you realize in debates attacking the person directly is just so politcal like and degrading. It's just a very cheap manner to take.

[Icemage]

With the lag in Besieged, it's not a TCP vs. UDP issue, though. The packets are not "lost UDP packets", they are literally are not being sent. Square-Enix could flood me with UDP packets and chances are I'd get them all - that's why normal battle messages show up as regular as the sun under normal circumstances. If it were an issue with the packets being sent UDP, you'd see dialup users with issues, but broadband users on good computers would have no problems.

For Besieged, what I think is happening is that the servers are realizing that they're sending the maximum amount of allowed data to each player and simply not sending anything until the server determines that a 56k player on that connection could reliably stay connected.


Icemage

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Icemage

With the lag in Besieged, it's not a TCP vs. UDP issue, though. The packets are not "lost UDP packets", they are literally are not being sent. Square-Enix could flood me with UDP packets and chances are I'd get them all - that's why normal battle messages show up as regular as the sun under normal circumstances. If it were an issue with the packets being sent UDP, you'd see dialup users with issues, but broadband users on good computers would have no problems.
For Besieged, what I think is happening is that the servers are realizing that they're sending the maximum amount of allowed data to each player and simply not sending anything until the server determines that a 56k player on that connection could reliably stay connected.
Icemage

Yes, they could flood your system but it seems you are forgetting that from your network to Square-Enix's servers you got more then just your ISP in-between were packets can get lost. I would bet that connections in Japan don't see this issue of lost UDPs as badly just because of being closer to the source. Unless you have single dedicate line that goes from your house all the way to Square Enix (Technically not even in the internet then), there is no way that you wouldn't of lost a UDP. Either a message once in a while (provided you have your logs open to see all messages) or a command you thought you did but wasn't sure and redid.

[eticket109]

you guys need to get a room and 'work out' some of this tension >.>

[Icemage]

The amount of data that S-E sends to a typical user does not overwhelm the UDP protocol. Not even close.

My proof: Every once in a blue moon, I've had a gateway or other internet hop hiccup and delay my connection, even in combat. When it happens in combat, everything will look fine except that I'll stop seeing any damage messages - but when it "unfreezes" I get virtually all, if not all, of the combat log messages that have been sent by the server since it started freezing. Not only does the game engine handle it smoothly (the text scrolls by at lightning speed, but it does get tracked), but it even does a lot of the animations at high speed - it's like a temporary fast-forward in the game as it catches up.

There's no evidence to suggest that the UDP packet usage for combat data is what is causing the missing log entries in Besieged. If they were merely stray UDP packets, we'd get them sooner or later, but the effect is both consistent and repeatable, which suggests that it's a different cause.


Icemage

[Macht]

Not sure if it would work, he and I seem to have conflicts on more then just this. Probably both of us view a cup with water at a halfway point differently too.

Originally Posted by Icemage

The amount of data that S-E sends to a typical user does not overwhelm the UDP protocol. Not even close.
My proof: Every once in a blue moon, I've had a gateway or other internet hop hiccup and delay my connection, even in combat. When it happens in combat, everything will look fine except that I'll stop seeing any damage messages - but when it "unfreezes" I get virtually all, if not all, of the combat log messages that have been sent by the server since it started freezing. Not only does the game engine handle it smoothly (the text scrolls by at lightning speed, but it does get tracked), but it even does a lot of the animations at high speed - it's like a temporary fast-forward in the game as it catches up.
There's no evidence to suggest that the UDP packet usage for combat data is what is causing the missing log entries in Besieged. If they were merely stray UDP packets, we'd get them sooner or later, but the effect is both consistent and repeatable, which suggests that it's a different cause.
Icemage

No, once a UDP goes stray it never reaches a destination and neither side cares if it's got there or not. It is not like a TCP session, the TCP sessions are meticulous in ensuring they get all data. That hiccup you are getting is a result of something else entirely different, an array of possibilities well beyond just internet.

In fact what you described is a recent thing mine started doing after an installation spree I shouldn't of done. My hiccup issue there I'm very certain is due to a program I've installed.

Should add, you want evidence: User Datagram Protocol

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Lacking reliability, UDP applications must generally be willing to accept some loss, errors or duplication. Some applications such as TFTP may add rudimentary reliability mechanisms into the application layer as needed.

I may mess up the technicals on databases, but that's largely due to the IT group I have to learn from. However try and shit me about Internet is just rediculous because I have Cisco Certifications for Networks. Anyway done before it gets way out of hand.

[little ninja]

Originally Posted by Macht

Fair enough by the same token, I can't believe you either. Working with a system I've maticulously built and made sure parts were very compatible with eachother, I can play Besiege with full effects and have no lag problems. Well until recently but I stupidly did got on an installing spree so I'm sure a program I installed is the culprit of my degraded performance.
It becomes very painfully clear to me when I run this game on 3 systems of different quality and have seen how Besiege works on them. Another out-of-date PC I have in it's 12th year that I built needs me to strip out all extra graphical stuff because it can't handle it. If your system has problems I would question it's component and their compatibility along with potential software that's on the system.

If that was the case id be dealing with this problem on a regular basis. Instead its only at certain times. Such as being in a crowded area. D.A during pops, Besieged. Its not like im experiencing this kind of stuff running thru V.D or anything.

If it was my computer some of my programs would have slow problems, But i can run a bunch of programs an easily go between them without troubles.

As for programs, FFXI was the last thing i installed on my system. So the only thing now is windows updates, FFXi updates, an virus updates. I have way to much mem, i have way to much H.D an im running at 3.8ghz. When i get home i can check the Vid card. but thats no crappy thing either.

I still think S.E servers are one of the main causes of it. Not to mention it has already been stated they S.E kept back its games limitations because it was ment for the PS2 systems. Thus a large 56k user base.

Its labeled a gaming machine by industry standards. Since everything in it was at one time the same stuff alienware put in there gaming machines. Even to make sure everything was up an running correctly i took it to a local computer shop. they even complimented me on the hardware, an the fact everything ran the way it was suppose to. Then they offered me a job. But thats the one thing i was afraid of, the software conflicting with the hardware.