Drg/ Subjob

sp4rk · 04-12-2009, 02:26 PM

My friend was helping me get of my items for my subjob quest on his 75 DRK. I noticed that he actually has a lot to do in bewteen his auto attacks and WS, which got me thinking of how boring it is as a warrior currently to just autoattack and use WS when they are up. Because of this I began looking up classes (melee in particular) that woudl deal good dmg while also being able to be enjoyable besides the regualr autoattack/WS rotation. After looking I came up with Drg/Blu, I know many woudl say they wont deal as much dmg as a drg/sam or drg/war, but it will keep the enjoyment of doing something while battling there. I was just wondering if they can deal comparable dmg to other melee DD classes by using mainly physical Blu spells while also being able to have the utility of being able to heal when need be.

Sorry for the long winded post but thank you for all who hopeflly willread and respond!

Sabaron · 04-12-2009, 03:22 PM

I have a particular selection of /BLU spells I use on DRG/BLU.

Healing Breeze + Sheep Song = +1 Regen
Power Attack: 5mp fast activator for Healing Breath
Pollen: 8mp self-cast activator for Healing Breath
Wild Carrot: Party Heal
Cocoon: 50% DEF Boost
Anything that boosts STR

You won't generally use /BLU in a party because in order for it to be effective (with Drachen Armet), your healing targets need to have orange HP. While this occurs occasionally, most healers will be on top of the healing before it gets to a level where you can intervene.

Now, there are a lot of occasions where I really like DRG/BLU. In smaller groups (especially some Assaults), it's nice to be able to have a DD that can heal.

The first time you take /BLU to a party instead of /SAM or /WAR you will probably notice a marked decrease in damage. Since your primary magic skill is off-sub, and because you have such a small MP pool, you won't be able to put out enough damage from spells to warrant casting them instead of gaining TP and attacking with your lance. Bludgeon is really the only spell you can use to deal damage and your hits will be weak. Also remember that Bludgeon is a 3-hit attack and therefore gives the mob 3 hits worth of TP.

Omgwtfbbqkitten · 04-12-2009, 03:31 PM

Don't know why people think they only have to have one subjob here.

DRG/BLU is nice for soloing and small groups but it doesn't bring a whole lot to EXP parties, plus it gives RDMs, CORs and BRDs another mouth to feed on the frontlines, which they generally don't appreciate if its not a DRG, PLD or BLU main.

In the long run, you're going to get more out of /SAM and /WAR for DRG than most other subjobs. Its understandable to rind such jobs a little dull right now since there isn't much else to do but autoattack, weaponskill and sometimes provoke to help the tank out, but WAR does get a bit more interesting over time.

In fact, if you want to feel like you're doing more for a PT as a WAR now, you can do so by spamming Shield Break with your great axe. While it doesn't do a great amount of damage, you'll be helping your party since it lowers mob evasion

Or perhaps jobs with a greater range of activity would just be better for you.

On the melee side, I'd say BLU, RNG, THF and SAM actually end up being very active jobs. Not to try to turn you away from DRG, but it doesn't see as much activity until it gets more from its subjobs.

BLU gets all those physical magic spells, the constant casting would keep your interest. Plus there's always a new set of spells to look forward to any lots of ways to customize your stats and traits within the job. For me, that's what make's BLU fun - always something to look foward to.

RNG doesn't really get much out of autoattacking since you have to enter ranged attacks manually, but they get a wide range of ammo that allows them to do various things. Guns and Bows focus on raw damage, but Crossbows screw more towards support and soloability. Acid Bolts to pull a mob's defense down, Blind bolts to lower mob accuracy, Holy bolts for magic damage, Bloody Bolts to cure your HP and then stuff like Sleep Bolts and Shadowbind for crowd control.

SAM does get more interesting, particularly when you learn Hasso at 25, Meditate at 30 and Seigan at 35. This opens up SAM to a more versatile role. Meditate, the Store TP traits and Sekkanoki will let you master the use of TP, allowing you to weaponskill often. When subjobs options get stronger, it gets even more fun. /RNG takes SAM to new levels of TP gain and throws the fun or Sidewinder and Barrage into the mix. /WAR for greater damage, THF for some nice spike damage to weaponskills and /DNC for greater soloability or just to be more supportive to the group without losing much in the way of being a melee.

THF has the ability frequently do spike damage and manipulate enmity, this ability comes frequently so you'll always be looking for the opportunity to do it.

Supporting role see a load of activity as well. With RDM and BRD, you always be casting magic or singing songs. BRDs are considered pullers so there's never really a moment of sitting still. COR gets to buff allies and do ranged attacks frequently, which puts them closer into the high activity and melee that you want. SCH are mages with job abilities they use frequently to manipulate how they use magic.

Bottom line - you don't have to decide your main job right now. Get to 30, unlock as many jobs as you can and go out and experience them all. After that, go with the job you like.

Durahansolo · 04-12-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sp4rk

My friend was helping me get of my items for my subjob quest on his 75 DRK. I noticed that he actually has a lot to do in bewteen his auto attacks and WS, which got me thinking of how boring it is as a warrior currently to just autoattack and use WS when they are up. Because of this I began looking up classes (melee in particular) that woudl deal good dmg while also being able to be enjoyable besides the regualr autoattack/WS rotation. After looking I came up with Drg/Blu, I know many woudl say they wont deal as much dmg as a drg/sam or drg/war, but it will keep the enjoyment of doing something while battling there. I was just wondering if they can deal comparable dmg to other melee DD classes by using mainly physical Blu spells while also being able to have the utility of being able to heal when need be.

Sorry for the long winded post but thank you for all who hopeflly willread and respond!

See...The thing about that 75DRK that you didn't see was how he actually functions in a party. How a 75 job might function in a situation where mobs are "too weak to be worthwile" is different than how one might actually function with mobs that are higher than his level. I can't further comment on that since you didn't actually explain what he was doing.

On that same note, I remember back when I first started there were jobs that made me go OMGWTFAWESOMESAUCE, but as I started to get higher and I actually played those jobs I realized that although those jobs were cool they'd make you burn yourself out after awhile. So even though they were awesome at 75 it might be hell getting there.

DRG/BLU would probably mostly be used for the ability to survive. You'll get stat boosts from equipping blue spells and you'll get a Healing Breath wyvern which'll help you to heal yourself. /BLU probably has the lowest MP pool out of any of the mage jobs, so you might need to swap out some gear to make up for it. It'd probably be most helpful as a sub while soloing, but for parties you should also have /SAM(available for 60ish), /WAR, either /WHM or /RDM, /DNC(Maybe), and /NIN(Mostly for endgame and what not.)

Also I'd like to add...Why are you making Warrior sound like it a brainless job...(I'm sure alot of people will agree with you, but dude don't start comparing every job with Warrior.) There are plenty of jobs on here that are pretty much TP/Weaponskill/Rinse/Repeat so don't act like Warrior is the only one.

sp4rk · 04-12-2009, 04:33 PM

Yeah I understand, and what everyone is saying and I thank you all for your response and input, but I just dont want to be a class where that's all I can do is just auto/WS. Because of this, I was interested in the DRG for the reason of being able to solo effectively, off heal when needed, and throw out some sick damage also. I basically am saying that I wanna be able to have a class that can fulfill many roles just by switching the subjob around thus keeping me interested.Once again I'd like how Drk played for that reason with the absorbs, stun, bio and drain/aspir, it seemed liek there was always somethgin to do other than watch your TP bar. Besides in every MMO ive played, I have always played a hunter/pet class, so I am a sucker for the wyvern haha

Sabaron · 04-12-2009, 08:10 PM

I think DRG has been both fun and interesting even in party.

DRG/SAM is a very active job. Since you build TP so quickly and have lots of JAs to keep on top of (including Seigan/Third Eye for defense), I find it to be pretty active.

Now I will also say that every job I've ever done regardless of the # of actions you do in a given time period gets monotonous. This is why it's good to have something else going on like TV or music.

Tickmeoff · 04-12-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sp4rk

Yeah I understand, and what everyone is saying and I thank you all for your response and input, but I just dont want to be a class where that's all I can do is just auto/WS. Because of this, I was interested in the DRG for the reason of being able to solo effectively, off heal when needed, and throw out some sick damage also. I basically am saying that I wanna be able to have a class that can fulfill many roles just by switching the subjob around thus keeping me interested.Once again I'd like how Drk played for that reason with the absorbs, stun, bio and drain/aspir, it seemed liek there was always somethgin to do other than watch your TP bar. Besides in every MMO ive played, I have always played a hunter/pet class, so I am a sucker for the wyvern haha

If you're into pet classes and really want to be always doing something I would recommend Puppetmaster. You control a little pet called an Automaton that you can customize with different parts and attachments before battle, and during battle you activate various elemental "maneuvers" to influence how your puppet fights. Maneuvers only last a minute and using too many of the same one can cause an Overload, so you have to juggle them a lot.

It's a very active job, but the drawback is it isn't really liked by most of the community. You may have to solo a lot if you aren't very patient with searching for a group and because very few people play it a lot of the puppet attachments can be expensive.

IfritnoItazura · 04-12-2009, 11:49 PM

Recently used DRG/BLU in a Lv.32 (->35) pick up group. Obviously I disagree with the notion that DRG/BLU is only good for soloing or small group. Reasons?

- Many people build party with too little curing power; DRG/BLU is a strong choice for clutch curing with Healing Breath II.
- Don't trust PUG tanks. Cocoon isn't as good as Utusemi, but it's better than Defender (which DRG32 can't use anyway).
- Head Butt. Save blink tanks. Save healers. Save self.
- A little bit of extra DEX.

Should be noted that I can supply my own MP with Pineapple Juice, so won't cause down time from MP issue. (I use mages' down time to make more. )

Actually ended up in a party with two healers. But, the lousy NIN tank made Cocoon worth three time its costs in MP. NIN bolted, and the replacement WAR/NIN didn't know he was tank for like 45 minutes. The replacement THF actually wanted to SATA, so I volunteered as the SATA partner since the WAR obviously is inattentive and had no idea how to play with THFs, with the DRG/WAR leader voking. (Why gimp a THF's damage on bats?)

Didn't have many opportunities to use Healing Breath, but Cocoon and Head Butt were golden.

When you're not sure what kind of party you're getting into, /BLU is a nice, safe bet between Lv.24-40, IMO.

* * *

More and more I dislike /WAR for any job (except PLD and NIN) for party use. Unless it's to set up SATA with Provoke, Warrior SJ's Berserk is just too much of a liability.

If worrying about not doing enough damage, farm, fish, garden, do BS/KS battles, ENMs, ISNMs; whatever it takes to get enough gil. Equip yourself well, eat the right food (Marinara Pizza from ~Lv.25 on, for example), and you'll do decent damage if you're paying attention while playing. (I outdamaged the DRG/WAR, for the record, by a wide margin. Yay for Marinara Pizza. )

Omgwtfbbqkitten · 04-13-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

- Don't trust PUG tanks. Cocoon isn't as good as Utusemi, but it's better than Defender (which DRG32 can't use anyway).

This is an absolutely horrible attitude to pass on to other players. Worst thing you can do in a PT is stay in a PT and act like you don't trust any of the people there to do their jobs. If you're not going to show trust, go back to soloing, that way you don't waste your time and you don't waste a PT's time.

And ironically, you advocate DRG/BLU because of the way people build PTs, which doesn't make you look any more trustworthy. You're saying "I don't trust the healer or the tank to do thier jobs." To me, it says "I'd rather just solo," and I wouldn't invite you to start with. If I did invite you and you didn't change subs to something more appropriate I'd probably kick you.

Not to mention Blue Magic skill will not stay strong under sub as you get higher in level. The buffs and cures will still work fine, but the potency of physical blue magic will wane a bit when subbed at higher levels. Head Butt will not always save the day, in time you will start to see more resists.

Most of what you said is telling the OP what he wants to hear in the worst way possible. I usually expect better from you, but to actually slam /WAR for anything but a tank job is just sad. Berserk is too much of a liability when players just use it to zerg, not bring fights to a decisive end or start fights with some strong hits. To never use Bezerk is just stupid.

And yes, you can outdamage a DRG/WAR if you know what you're doing, but if he knows what he's doing and is gear just as well, fact is he's going to beat you by a much wider margin than you did when you beat the DRG that didn't know what he was doing. You may as well be patting yourself on the back for beating some quadriplegics in a marathon.

I'm saying all of this because I used to be the hard-headed player who wanted to force DRG/WHM on my PTs when I started the game. I was punchdrunk on the potential of the system rather than taking my PTs interests into consideration. It may be your $12.95 a month, but its thier $64.75.

Parties want the best EXP per hour they can get. For melees, that means putting out the damage while watching that fine line of mob hate. Force something unwanted on the rest of the PT and expect things to slow down. There are plenty of better subjobs for DRG that keep things active and there are a lot more jobs out there more active than DRG or WAR.

sp4rk · 04-13-2009, 08:32 AM

Didn't mean to kindle such a discussion but Ifritnoitazura did mention that Drg/Sam can be an active melee job with the amount of TP you are generating thus the amount of WS you will be pulling off. I may try it out but im kinda warry about it due to a recent addition to my LS who is Drg/Sam main and not sure if having two would be good. He is a lot higher than me being that he actually has both advanced classes while I am just about to get my subjob (haha yes I know im a newb), so I dont think there is much of a problem there. Besides, with us both being Sam subbed, I think we might be able to pull of some nice skillchains frequently.

Sabaron · 04-13-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Recently used DRG/BLU in a Lv.32 (->35) pick up group. Obviously I disagree with the notion that DRG/BLU is only good for soloing or small group. Reasons?

- Many people build party with too little curing power; DRG/BLU is a strong choice for clutch curing with Healing Breath II.
- Don't trust PUG tanks. Cocoon isn't as good as Utusemi, but it's better than Defender (which DRG32 can't use anyway).
- Head Butt. Save blink tanks. Save healers. Save self.
- A little bit of extra DEX.

Should be noted that I can supply my own MP with Pineapple Juice, so won't cause down time from MP issue. (I use mages' down time to make more. )

Actually ended up in a party with two healers. But, the lousy NIN tank made Cocoon worth three time its costs in MP. NIN bolted, and the replacement WAR/NIN didn't know he was tank for like 45 minutes. The replacement THF actually wanted to SATA, so I volunteered as the SATA partner since the WAR obviously is inattentive and had no idea how to play with THFs, with the DRG/WAR leader voking. (Why gimp a THF's damage on bats?)

Didn't have many opportunities to use Healing Breath, but Cocoon and Head Butt were golden.

When you're not sure what kind of party you're getting into, /BLU is a nice, safe bet between Lv.24-40, IMO.

* * *

More and more I dislike /WAR for any job (except PLD and NIN) for party use. Unless it's to set up SATA with Provoke, Warrior SJ's Berserk is just too much of a liability.

If worrying about not doing enough damage, farm, fish, garden, do BS/KS battles, ENMs, ISNMs; whatever it takes to get enough gil. Equip yourself well, eat the right food (Marinara Pizza from ~Lv.25 on, for example), and you'll do decent damage if you're paying attention while playing. (I outdamaged the DRG/WAR, for the record, by a wide margin. Yay for Marinara Pizza. )

I've shifted to DRG/BLU for some 60+ parties--especially NIN tanked parties to act as a backup healer and I did need to activate Healing Breath with some frequency. However, such parties are generally neither common nor efficient.

I will state, however, that at low levels (20+), you can use DRG/COR and toss Hunter's Roll to give a nice +Acc bonus to everyone. This one roll is worth more than anything you can do with other subs unless, of course, you need to backup heal.

IfritnoItazura · 04-13-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Worst thing you can do in a PT is stay in a PT and act like you don't trust any of the people there to do their jobs. If you're not going to show trust, go back to soloing, that way you don't waste your time and you don't waste a PT's time.

And ironically, you advocate DRG/BLU because of the way people build PTs, which doesn't make you look any more trustworthy. You're saying "I don't trust the healer or the tank to do thier jobs."

Experience is the teacher; I've leveled SAM and DRG at low levels (under 37) recently. The amount of time I spent 'tanking' from damage taught me the importance of damage mitigation.

In the last week of partying, the overwhelming majority of NA players I had in party didn't even use food. Going the extra mile with juices for MP users in parties which uses a lot MP? Seen it twice in 10+ parties--JP WHM75 synched down to Lv.32, and my DRG/BLU.

At least on Ifrit, trust in low level parties is misplaced; bring your own damage mitigation unless you know the tanks and healers would perform well. (Or, you can gimp your gear and save gil on food, I suppose. Not something I would advocate, though.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Not to mention Blue Magic skill will not stay strong under sub as you get higher in level. The buffs and cures will still work fine, but the potency of physical blue magic will wane a bit when subbed at higher levels. Head Butt will not always save the day, in time you will start to see more resists.

Was only talking about low level party. And, no, Head Butt isn't close to 100%, not even for BLUs. (But, you know that.)

For mid and high level parties, as a BRD and RDM person, I prefer the DRG players use /NIN in pickup groups, especially on Colibris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

And yes, you can outdamage a DRG/WAR if you know what you're doing, but if he knows what he's doing and is gear just as well, fact is he's going to beat you by a much wider margin than you did when you beat the DRG that didn't know what he was doing.

Of course he can do more damage if he actually used food and the right food. But, that doesn't necessarily make /WAR the right choice--depending on the strength of the tanks, damage mitigation can make partying smoother and give better exp/hour due to less down time and fewer K.O.'s for oneself.

From what I've seen, the odds of getting people who know what they are doing in low level pickup parties is rather bad lately. Seriously bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Parties want the best EXP per hour they can get. For melees, that means putting out the damage while watching that fine line of mob hate.

We're in perfect agreement here, just differ in how to walk that line. I see SJ as an adjustable option for tuning damage output and mitigation, and even for adding curing options and misc. utilities for partying and soloing both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Force something unwanted on the rest of the PT and expect things to slow down.

Like, taking more damage than healers can sustain? As a long time "pink mage" player, I can tell you that's really, really unwanted, and K.O. really slows things down.

Karinya · 04-13-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Experience is the teacher; I've leveled SAM and DRG at low levels (under 37) recently. The amount of time I spent 'tanking' from damage taught me the importance of damage mitigation.

Sure, but damage mitigation is neither your role in the party, nor something your job is good at. Ignoring those facts will not help.

Quote:

In the last week of partying, the overwhelming majority of NA players I had in party didn't even use food.

Bad luck or bad server culture? You be the judge. All I can say personally is that my experience is very much otherwise.

Quote:

Going the extra mile with juices for MP users in parties which uses a lot MP? Seen it twice in 10+ parties--JP WHM75 synched down to Lv.32, and my DRG/BLU.

You might see it more often when satchels come out, but then again, you might not. Juices always were a primarily NPC-vendor-powered thing, and deflation hits them hard. The effective cost of juice spam (not just a few juices for a bad pull etc., but using them constantly) always was kind of steep, now it's *really* steep.

Quote:

At least on Ifrit, trust in low level parties is misplaced; bring your own damage mitigation unless you know the tanks and healers would perform well. (Or, you can gimp your gear and save gil on food, I suppose. Not something I would advocate, though.)

If you lower your standards, how do you expect the rest of the server to raise theirs? That stuff would never fly on Carbuncle - you'd be mentioned in LS chat of everyone in the party and pretty soon people start "going afk" when you send them a tell asking if they want to join you.

It's one thing to go SAM/DNC because the party is short on healing and you're willing to sacrifice some damage to fill that gap, but trying to tank on a job with poor mitigation, no hate grabbing other than damage and no self-healing just drags the party down further.

Quote:

For mid and high level parties, as a BRD and RDM person, I prefer the DRG players use /NIN in pickup groups, especially on Colibris.

Ugh. I would either laugh and come /SAM, or suddenly remember that I had to be somewhere else (depending on mood and whether or not the party actually has important roles filled yet or is one of those "we'll sit around for 2 hours hoping a brd logs on" deals). DRG/NIN is a terrible, nearly indefensible combo. Its damage output is considerably inferior to /SAM's and its damage avoidance isn't even much better.

P.S. If you're not soloing or trying to tank, I prefer /WHM to /BLU - the same curing power, plus status cures and Erase instead of Cocoon. Reraise is useful in some areas too.

Sabaron · 04-13-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

For mid and high level parties, as a BRD and RDM person, I prefer the DRG players use /NIN in pickup groups, especially on Colibris.

I'll have to politely disagree with you there on the /NIN thing. Now, certainly, I would agree that requesting it wouldn't be a bad thing, that forcing it is not appropriate. Damage Mitigation is easy to accomplish with /SAM once you hit 60, and above 70th level, when Seigan becomes available, the mitigation of /SAM becomes adequate for DRG. DRG already has 2 mitigation abilities and in all the Colibri parties I've been in:

1. If the tank is a good PLD or there is a THF, very little mitigation is required. Super Jump will usually suffice.

2. NIN + THF groups don't require too much mitigation. High Jump and Super Jump with occasional use of Third Eye or using "End of Life" killing tactics can provide adequate mitigation though the latter causes some loss of TP

3. NIN only groups require the most mitigation. For DRG Mitigation without shadows, the following techniques can be used:

1. Reserve your High Jump for use only after you receive hate.

2. Instead of spacing your damage out evenly, do it in spikes at appropriate time:

When High Jump or Super Jump is up.
When the mob is nearly dead.

3. Seigan is a decent damage mitigation ability for use. Set up your macro with Seigan/Third Eye together and then activate it just before you WS.

4. Mitigation with /WAR is more difficult because of Defender's long recast time and lower effectiveness. If you have the extra inventory space, you can keep your soloing (Defensive) gear handy and make a macro to swap it in to further mitigate damage--Defense gear works especially well with /WAR because Defender is a percentage based bonus, but Physical Damage reduction gear like Darksteel Harness, Gavial and Hydra is always nice.

IfritnoItazura · 04-14-2009, 02:34 AM

On paper, I completely agree /NIN shouldn't be all that more useful compared to /SAM in the levels where Seigan is available and before Utsusemi: Ni. Between Seigan, Third Eye, parrying, and eavsion, I dodged 44%+ of the attacks in party as SAM/DNC, and 44% damage mitigation is good enough, I think. (Still, for /SAM, that leaves just the levels between 70 and 73... )

However, in my personal experience, the players who come by choice with /NIN tend to be those who do decent enough damage, while taking far less damage than the /SAM and /WAR players; /SAM users tend to stay on Hasso and avoid Seigan.

Maybe this is just another thing specific to Ifrit like the no food for low level trend, but /SAM's in non-LS parties usually mean fast MP depletion.

* * *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karinya

Sure, but damage mitigation is neither your role in the party, nor something your job is good at. Ignoring those facts will not help.

Hmm. The way I look at it, if I am likely to be an MP sponge, I should start thinking damage mitigation. It's a fact that SJ allows for damage mitigation choices, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karinya

P.S. If you're not soloing or trying to tank, I prefer /WHM to /BLU - the same curing power, plus status cures and Erase instead of Cocoon. Reraise is useful in some areas too.

I thought about it before heading out with /BLU instead of /WHM. I figured taking less damage via Cocoon was likely to be more useful than -na's in a Lv.32 party in Garliage Citadel. (The status effects from bats and bettles need Erase to remove, which /WHM16 does't offer.)

Just happened to have a THF who wanted to SATA and a NIN (then a WAR/NIN) who is clueless on how THF works, so Cocoon was even more useful than I had thought it would be. (Can't really take credit for that, I suppose.)

* * *

Quote: