[Armando]

Mal, your argument is confusing as hell. You go and suppose Desperate Blows won't be capped to say /SAM > /DRG but then suppose it is capped when supporting /WAR (and mention Bergressor which a DRK doesn't have access to, just the Berserk part.) This

DRK can't actually cap haste from equipment without /DRG or Apocalypse making /SAM the better choice if it's more haste you want.

Also seems like a non-sequitur. What does the inability to cap Equipment Haste have to do with SAM's Hasso? If you had 5/5 Desperate Blows Hasso would be moot and you could go /DRG for Wyvern Earring and end up on top.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

Also seems like a non-sequitur. What does the inability to cap Equipment Haste have to do with SAM's Hasso? If you had 5/5 Desperate Blows Hasso would be moot and you could go /DRG for Wyvern Earring and end up on top.

More over-all haste. 10% from hasso > 5% from wyvern earring (4% really if you have l337 gear)

Originally Posted by Armando

Mal, your argument is confusing as hell. You go and suppose Desperate Blows won't be capped to say /SAM > /DRG but then suppose it is capped when supporting /WAR (and mention Bergressor which a DRK doesn't have access to, just the Berserk part.) This

No, what I meant is /SAM is redundant with 5/5 Desperate Blows since popping LR will cap you on JA haste for the 30 seconds that you're spamming SE + BW, making /WAR or /DRG the better the choice.

Catastrophe adds +10 equipment haste btw which is why it's such a beast of a relic (sucks for Apoc owners they lowered the haste cap but oh well. 10x attack speed with SE + BW was just nuts anyway regardless of needing a relic to do it)

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Icemage

If you absolutely positively feel like you must nuke as a DRK, please for the love of god sub Scholar so you can at least not completely embarass yourself with Dark Arts.

Except Dark Knight's native Elemental Magic Skill is actually high enough for Dark Arts to do diddly squat for nukes, re/cast times and MP costs aside. :D Believe it or not, it's actually already a B+! Come to think about it, a WAR/SCH should be able to nuke almost as well as a Dark Knight . . .

Problem with DRK nukes isn't their skill, which is actually greater than a RDM's in that department (RDMs have, what, a C-?). The greater problem lies in that nuke damage (resists aside) have diddly to do with actual Elemental Magic Skill. In this game, it's all about whichever nuke is the latest that's the greatest. And Dark Knight's arsenal ends at Tier II. Red Mage's sub-par Tier III nukes are barely acceptable, and that only because, we'd much rather have them do that than see them dare approach the front lines. Well, that along with MAB is pretty much why a Dark Knight is pretty much never going to out-nuke a Red Mage, in spite of skill levels.

Not like DRK is actually hurting in the Magic department, though - they have some pretty freaking powerful magic under their A- Dark Magic Skill, especially if you remember that (well, except for lolBio) each one of them is a simultaneous buff and debuff spell, the debuffing side forgotten by a few too many Dark Knights in the game, what with the whole self-buffing melee mentality and all.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Except Dark Knight's native Elemental Magic Skill is actually high enough for Dark Arts to do diddly squat for nukes, re/cast times and MP costs aside. :D Believe it or not, it's actually already a B+! Come to think about it, a WAR/SCH should be able to nuke almost as well as a Dark Knight . . .

Hm, I remember DRK had gotten a boost to Elemental Magic skill (why, Square-Enix, WHY?) but for some reason remembered it going from D to C+ or something equally drekky. Must be getting senile in my old age... in any case you're right, they're not exactly burning down the barn with their grand selection of Tier 2 nukes.

Problem with DRK nukes isn't their skill, which is actually greater than a RDM's in that department (RDMs have, what, a C-?). The greater problem lies in that nuke damage (resists aside) have diddly to do with actual Elemental Magic Skill. In this game, it's all about whichever nuke is the latest that's the greatest. And Dark Knight's arsenal ends at Tier II. Red Mage's sub-par Tier III nukes are barely acceptable, and that only because, we'd much rather have them do that than see them dare approach the front lines. Well, that along with MAB is pretty much why a Dark Knight is pretty much never going to out-nuke a Red Mage, in spite of skill levels.

Well, Red Mages can nuke mostly because they can equip HQ elemental staves to compensate for their relatively low magic skills - something DRKs can't readily do without losing TP. RDMs in melee however, are still mostly window dressing due to the loltastic damage of their 1 handed swords and dagger WS selection (along with the weapons they can actually wield).

Not like DRK is actually hurting in the Magic department, though - they have some pretty freaking powerful magic under their A- Dark Magic Skill, especially if you remember that (well, except for lolBio) each one of them is a simultaneous buff and debuff spell, the debuffing side forgotten by a few too many Dark Knights in the game, what with the whole self-buffing melee mentality and all.

DRK Absorbs are probably the most underrated spells in the game, particularly Absorb-VIT. The buffing effect is mostly negligible - sorry, but it really is. Even so, dropping enemy VIT and/or AGI and/or INT can be quite helpful under various circumstances.

They weren't much to write home about when they took 4 seconds to cast back in the day, but after the update that reduced their casting time to 2 seconds, they're well worth the time and MP spent.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Well, Red Mages can nuke mostly because they can equip HQ elemental staves to compensate for their relatively low magic skills - something DRKs can't readily do without losing TP.

To be honest, even with staves, nuking post the jungles didn't seem all that great in exp parties unless it was an MB. Enfeebs, buffs, and cures are what made me feel useful on RDM.

Originally Posted by Icemage

RDMs in melee however, are still mostly window dressing due to the loltastic damage of their 1 handed swords and dagger WS selection (along with the weapons they can actually wield).

True for most exp levels, but Joyeuse, Justice Sword, and Blau Dolch aren't exactly slouches. Evisceration and Death Blossom don't seem all that bad, and on /WAR or /DRK (and other SJ) Vorpal Blade becomes available. (Though, Joyeuse or Justice and Vorpal Blade kinda makes a yawner--a frequent yawner, mind you, but it's no smile bringer.)

Not to say RDMs can't contribute signficant damage, but most RDM won't hit parity with most melee DDs, especially with the benefit and cost (in time) of its spells. I'd give up my Joyeuse before I give up my spell list, though, to head off anyone who dare to suggest nerfing RDM's spell casting so it can melee more.

Originally Posted by Icemage

DRK Absorbs are probably the most underrated spells in the game, particularly Absorb-VIT. The buffing effect is mostly negligible - sorry, but it really is. Even so, dropping enemy VIT and/or AGI and/or INT can be quite helpful under various circumstances.

How well do those land without staves? On exp targets? Endgame targets?

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

How well do those land without staves? On exp targets? Endgame targets?

I've ben casting Absorb-Vit on IT+ Targets on ALL fights at the start. I have never seen them get resisted. I don't think the spell can be resisted. Even before my dark skill was capped, they didn't get resisted. There might be a test about it some where...

The duration of the spell can last 7 seconds to a full 2 minutes (I think, havent timed it, but the vit+ on my buff screen lasts for a while even after the monster is dead.) if un-resisted.

[Malacite]

IIRC DRK already has B+ elemental (never did understand why DRK got more skill than RDM ) it's problems are 3-fold;

1) Low INT

2) Low MP

3) Their last spell is Thunder II >_>

Yeah you can probably /BLM or /RDM and use staves for a decent T2 but.... why the hell would you do that?

[Celeal]

In practice, each swing of A+/A- weapon from DRK most likely match or suppress each nuke they got at the same level. Hitting the mob with a weapon don't even cost MP, and on top of it you gain TP.

IMHO, DRK the job itself has no issue with lacking of damage output. If your party has strong hate control (like a good tank or a THF), /DD (/WAR, /SAM, ect...) would work. If the party is lack of hate control and coordination, the DRK is better off /THF (lvl 60+) or /NIN. At low level party, if the party is lacking healing power, /mage can help a little.

[Malacite]

Well, it seems like SE intended DRK's to have elemental magic either as a means for dealing with elementals (in addition to their arcana killer abilities) and/or to magic burst. Problem is, even on an MB you're still better off using that MP on Dark Magic instead.

[Tokitung]

Currently my Drk is 60 (go go Maat's Cap! ; ; ) and this is what I used for subs and why:

10-23 = War (at these levels, sub really doesn't matter a whole lot)

24-29 = Nin (Yay Shadows, DW if you want too)

30-49 = Nin (If tank looks like it may have hate problems) or Thf (SA boost, yay)

50+ = Sam, Nin, Thf, or War

Sam - Hasso is awesome, adding Str, speed and most importantly, acc. Then add in the STP traits and Zanshin can sometimes kick in and be nice. @ 60 you have Meditate, making it that much more awesome.

Nin - /Nin to me is a safety net. I use it when either a) there is no really tank on bird party or b) the tank sucks horribly.

Thf - I hardly use this sub as, frankly, it annoys me. Once per minute you can hit for a critical and/or TA it off someone else. That is, as long as you can do it while behind it and pray that no one else in the party pulls hate. With the standard of Bird parties, hate bounces all over the place and most people don't fight in a line formation anymore. So now that once per minute SA/TA is reduced to about a 50% possibility of landing. If you only chose to SA, now you have that hate on you with no defensive ability (Eva bonus doesn't do shit when the Bird uses Pecking Fury). SATA is just slow to me, which is why I normally won't party with a Thf once I'm on Birds until they are over 60 (Assassin ftw).

War - If Drk wasn't enough of an MP sponge, /War will make you an MP blackhole. And not necessarily because you do OMFGBBQCHOCO damage. The War JAs can generate quite a bit of hate. Defender does jack shit at that level. Double attack is nice.

I look at it, as many DDs do, as "attack and damage is nice, IF you hit". As Drk as some of the highest delay weapons in the game, I personally prefer Sam over all other subs. Sure you hit for a bit less damage, but you attack faster, have more accuracy, increase in TP gain from job traits/gear, have a chance to reswing if you miss, and come 60 you get free TP every 3 minutes. In my eyes, that makes /Sam a far more powerful subjob than any other.

p.s. Don't forget Third Eye! If I pull hate at the wrong time, I use it right at that small delay when the bird prepares Pecking Flurry. Changes from 2-600 damage to 0.

[Armando]

10-23 = War (at these levels, sub really doesn't matter a whole lot)

I would actually recommend WHM as a sub at these levels if for no other reason that you don't lose TP when resting in Signet areas, now there's FoV Refresh, and it's a hell of a lot more useful than /WAR.

/BLU is also an alternative from 16-23 for Cocoon.

The War JAs can generate quite a bit of hate

100% False. Only Warcry does, and Warcry's Attack boost is hardly worth the hate it generates unless A) you use it before getting on the mob's hate list or B) you use it when you're sure to kill the mob.

Defender does jack shit at that level.

Defender never does jack shit unless you're a PLD eating Defense food.

[IfritnoItazura]

Lv.10-20, /WHM is OK, but so is /DNC for Drain Samba or /BRD for Paeon.

Lv.20-29: While I like /NIN a lot in general, at these levels it may be better to push out more damage with /DRG or /RNG. /DRG for Jump is an extra attack round every 90 seconds (with some damage boost), which is actually a bit more useful than it sounds since parties tend to have down time at lower levels, so a lot of the cool down time isn't 'wasted'. /RNG is also a good Support Jobs for the Accuracy Bonus trait.

Lv.30+: This is tricky... Berserk is really nice, but DRK/WAR with Berserk up often becomes an MP sink without a strong tank and a THF to SATA. Souleater and /NIN go well together, but SE is only available one out of every six minute. /DRG is for boosting output with Wyvern Earring (plus Jump) without the problem of Berserk, but that earring isn't very affordable. That said, /NIN is the best SJ for aggressive and well geared DRKs, especially at higher levels.

I've had really bad experiences on SAM/DNC in Lv.30+ parties, so a bit hesitant to recommend /DNC to most DDs in pickup groups. Specifically, some healers would stop curing and start wasting MP on worthless nukes when they see a DD on /DNC using Waltz.


* * *

By the way, /THF before Lv.60 is silly, period.

[Pwnagraphic]

Originally Posted by Armando

I highly doubt this.

Regarding /RDM: Enspells suck on 2-handed weapons, and they suck hard without Enhancing Skill. Phalanx and Stoneskin suck without Enhancing Skill. Enfeebles have nothing to do with Dark Magic Skill, that's Enfeebling magic. Dark Magic is for Drain/Aspir/Absorbs/Stun.

DRKs suck at nuking. Don't even think about /BLM. /RDM gives MAB anyways.

Stick to /WAR by default, /SAM will become awesome at 60. /THF won't see much use until 60 unless you're in a traditional 1 tank-2DD-3 Mage/Support setup that revolves around you closing a powerful skillchain. It'll be more useful post-60 when TA comes into play.

Agreed. I never used /SAM much though. I only used /THF when asked too though. Sticking with /WAR is your best bet.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Lv.30+: This is tricky... Berserk is really nice, but DRK/WAR with Berserk up often becomes an MP sink without a strong tank and a THF to SATA

Or like any good DD you just have to pace yourself. Granted, there's really nothing you can do about a sucky tank but more often than not I find it's the fault of the DD going all-out.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Or like any good DD you just have to pace yourself. Granted, there's really nothing you can do about a sucky tank but more often than not I find it's the fault of the DD going all-out.

Some times its not that easy. Hitting 2 crits for 200+ at the start of a fight right after the tank vokes. Yea... Its really fun for getting yelled at for something you cant control.