[Ednoon]

if you are saying Fuidama thats 60+ and DRK would use Guillotine + soul + Sneak attack + Trick Attack, thats abouy 700-1000 dmg hate (not on crabs btw) on whoever they do that on. and THF would use Dancing edge at that level.
to have multi SJ helps finding PT. in Nin/War tank PTs they need THFs what happen when they can't find a THF? (DPS)/THF.
THF > /THF because the DEX/AGI +DMG. but over all Dancing Edge + SA + TA is about same dmg as Guillotine + SA + TA (if no miss) on top of that you can always souleater to make it even, more or less. one thing i have found is dont attack before you active souleater or last resort if you are going to Fuidama renkei on main tank.. at the start. still testing. but when monster is at 50% HP souleater or last reshort is not likely to grab aggro.
well IMO no one really play a THF as a main job... after 60 /thf can get the job done and almost as good as a real THF, + more DMG. i dont know any dagger WS after dancing edge cuz i have never seen a 65+ THF but viper bite 33-60, dancing edge 60+ that keeps the renkei very limited. as for DRK/THF atleast we still get GS to switch to using other type of renkei and hit much harder normal hits.

[Quezi]

I thought the idea was to just spam TA+Guillotine every chance you got. Trying to set up fuidama is just kinda hard and really you can only usualy do it once a fight, TA doesnt require the mob to be faceing away from you, only SA does. So in essence it would simply be like makeing the paladin do a guillotine. You can TA every minute, so just spam ta+guillotine as much as you can and make the mob think the PLD did it =P

[Vittra]

After you trick on the Paladin then the mob will face him and your only choice would be to trick on the other attacker, sort of the point is to set hate on the Paladin in the beginning and then renkei with the other attacker during the fight. You can't land trick attack with the mob facing the paladin. Sneak attack is done behind the mob, trick attack is done behind the mob + a body, so doing it every minute would require the mob to turn each time away from the tank. If hate gets taken from the Pal, then by all means go nuts and put it back on him

[Xephoid]

TA doesn't have to be done from behind. TA can be done from any direction as long as you have someone in front of you.

So TA+guillotine directly onto a PLD when the mob is facing the PLD works just fine. SA/TA + guillotine works at the beginning of a fight, when the damage dealer provoke and hold the mob for a second for a fuidama onto the PLD. But then during the fight, you can (a) have the damage dealer turn the mob to fuidma onto the tank, or (b) just TA + guillotine directly onto the tank if the damage dealer can't reliably turn the mob (I noticed DRG tend to have that problem), and SA onto the rear of the mob seperatly.

[Vittra]

That works :D, SA+TA sounds like a bitch to pull off together mid fight

[Quezi]

Yes, ta doesnt require you to be at its back=P

The question is, is it a good idea to be standing infront of a mob and trying to do that? Its alot nicer behind things=P

[Xephoid]

Many mobs have a cone attack, 90-180 degree arc attack in front of it. Raptor's breath attack is one such example.

Stand off to the side of the mob when you are waiting for the timer to cool down. When it's ready, step behind the tank, and do your trick, and then move back off to the side. I like to stand directly off to the side of the mob, and making swing behind the tank or the tail of the mob that much easier/faster.

Standing behind the PLD and take unnessary cone AOE damage is not my idea of fun. :p

[albert lee]

thats why you don't butt hug throught the game because your too lazy to move. i hate thiefs who do that. just move to the side, and wehn ur ready go behind the person. this way you don't annoy the person/ won't get the attack that passes through more than 1chr.

[Ednoon]

hmm.. last PT i was in i used only trick attack on ninja tank and sneak attack when even its up. so i run around alot. when the tp is up to 100% i renkei distortion with monk using ta on ninja(howling fist -> sickle moon)

sa and ta doesn't always have to go together cuz the extra dmg doesnt add up that much. only good about is to make your ta not miss but with ws it works. this is from what i experienced not sure how other drk/thf do in pt.
i also have done stacking sa and ta but it requires the other melee to voke at the start of the fight, which i dont think its worth the mp to do it.

[Herc]

i got a level 70 drk now , and i already have enough hate with war subjob for pld having trouble to handle , and cross reaper is MUCH better than guillotine imo anyway.
about sam subjob , it can be good in pt yes but the 95% of his use will be for HNM battles.
DRK basic config for HNM is :
DRK70 MInimum
SAM 30 minimum for meditate
Sword Skill 175 for spirit within
get to 300tp and use SW ; thats how it works for hnm fight , you dont kill them with physical damage
so thats how i use my sam sj just for hnm fight ^^

[Daeyeth]

All I hear about is ppl saying SAM sub is so overhyped etc. etc. Well...what the hell you guys talking about lol. I've NEVER heard of /sam being a good sub from the very beginning.

[tedbrjr]

i'm an elve drk/thf now at lvl25. in my experience of playing as a drk elve. yes, indeed i miss (i hate when i miss XD ) eventhough i got 2 +2dex ring still i miss XD

As everyong knows
if u miss = u can't gain tp = u can't catchup with the skill chain = ppl need to wait for u
PLUS
u need to rest to gain ur mp back = tp reduce = party member need to wait for u longer to start the skill chain.

ways to solve it. don't rest or buy the juice to recover mp. downsides of
----not resting u need some solo time or skill lvlup time to lvlup ur magic skills
----buy juice but u need a lot of gills >.<

Don't even think after lvl60drk or whatever let's just consider lvl 50 drk. at lvl50drk/sam u got the storetpI from sam subjob third eye the more ws u use the faster ur weapon skill goes up(i read somewhere and just remember it, i need to find it back XD) then ur gs and scythe can both kept at a close lvls.

however there are some thing that i'm not sure. how is the sam subjob affects the str ,dex & int to drk.

What i know is if u are /war yes u got more str ur physical attack is higher but dex and int are lower comparing to /thf. ppl like /war because of double attack , berserk, provoke(2nd tank). yes they are good but personally
----first i don't want to outdamage my tank in the party, which means less downtime for the whole party
----except the provoke is usefull to save the party for emergency.

party wise i would like to /thf even 1dex higher then war i will still go for /thf because as an elve my dex and int sucks and the /thf job will help me a bit.

however the /sam job this one is an interesting combo for a drk. before ur drk is lvl60 and get meditate ability. this combo seems like give ur party a little more advantage of less downtime. because
----- first a powerfull and right sc+mb on a right mob will kill the mob very quick that all of us should aggree XD
*except u don't know how powerfull a sc + mb is then there
is no need for reading anymore for my reply
------ second u won't overdamage the tank. then mob won't go after u, however no matter how good ur equibments are, if u get hit u will still need the whm or rdm or even blm use their mp to cure u, that means the total mp used in one battle is increased.

however there is some downsides of this combo that i can think of
----first it seems like u are not a "cookie-cutter" anymore
----second u don't have the ability of SA or berserk or even double attack.

however after lvl60 IFF(if and only if) u are soloing sub as a sam and use gilltone (maybe i spell it wrong XD) it will be very very .......hmm i don;t know how to describe it XD

as i know there are some high lvls drks here , indeed i'm very sorry that i forgot how to spell your name, they includes the one who create the "drk faq in a nut shell" and some other good ones. indeed thanks so much of making such faq for us it is very very usefull ^^if u read this reply or by any chance that u can swing by here and read this i will greatly see ur reply about my opinions.
i'm sorry about my poor english, i'm trying my best to fix that ^-^
anyhow have a nice day

[Zafron]

Originally posted by Daeyeth
All I hear about is ppl saying SAM sub is so overhyped etc. etc. Well...what the hell you guys talking about lol. I've NEVER heard of /sam being a good sub from the very beginning.

I agree with this. I have never spoken or read anything anywhere that makes the claim /SAM is the best sub for DRK, with the exception of Awntawns FAQ where he suggests that it is desireable for Skill chaining output at high levels.

Same goes with penta-thrust. Everyone says its over-rated. Over-rated by who? Go over to the DRG boards. Its littered with nothing but post after post by high level DRGs who all say penta-thrust sucks.