[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Kailea

that, and the fact that a lone DNC can not main heal -.-

Seen it done on Greater Colibri; NIN/WAR, SAM/WAR, SAM/WAR, BRD/NIN, DNC/NIN, RDM/WHM set up, and the DNC took well over 90% of the direct curing. SAM/WARs were using Berserk aggressively, and were getting beat up badly. The DNC had Brutal Earring and was off-handing Joyeuse. Not sure about Raja's, though. Visible gear set was just AF.

Of course, the SAMs were smart enough to give DNC extra TP whenever the timers allowed.

Originally Posted by wrongfeifong

Dnc can tank, of course, they can't hold aggro like PLD does, but as a tank. Yes dnc can do.

It depends on the fight.

If in party with front line people who are continuously getting hurt from AoE, DNC can actually secure the monster better than PLD if able to TP well. (Waltz is an amazing enmity tool.) I've seen a DNC do so without enmity gear, taking over tanking from PLDs as fights progress, and it happened consistently.

However, DNC's damage mitigation is mostly from /NIN; if monster is stripping Utsusemi too fast, the DNC will not live long as tank when fighting something dangerous. And, of course, DNC needs TP; HP/defense food/gear are fine for PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK, but often won't work for DNC/NIN as tank.


If talking about exp or merit parties, it's more iffy. WS spam parties don't need a tank, but should always have someone to pry the brid from the puller (i.e. BRD) with a high enmity JA or spell. DNC can do that. Exp party wise, DNC makes good co-tank in lower levels (Lv.20+), but I've no experience with them mid to high levels.

I suspect longer the fight, better they tank--but at the start of the fight I don't see how DNCs can solo tank. Co-tanking wise, it would depends on how much curing they get to do, before the damaging WS's come into play.

Originally Posted by wrongfeifong

Dnc have the 2nd highest evasion of all class. Consider you merit the evasion + the face off.
If you have the "tank" buff, you only take faction of damager with 2nd highest evasion. Its basically a tank.

I can solo charybis as a dnc. But i am not sure how high evasion even need to evade HNM But if ninja can do it, so can DNC.

NINs do not rely on evasion in endgame tanking, for the most part.

Haste gear for Utsusemi.
Idle in DD or damage reduction or resist gear.
Enmity/Haste gear for JA's and spells (like Stun).

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Seen it done on Greater Colibri; NIN/WAR, SAM/WAR, SAM/WAR, BRD/NIN, DNC/NIN, RDM/WHM set up, and the DNC took well over 90% of the direct curing. SAM/WARs were using Berserk aggressively, and were getting beat up badly. The DNC had Brutal Earring and was off-handing Joyeuse. Not sure about Raja's, though. Visible gear set was just AF.

Of course, the SAMs were smart enough to give DNC extra TP whenever the timers allowed.

thats my point, trust me if the SAMs did nto do that, the DNC would have a much harder time doing that. DNC can main heal, but only with the right setup.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Kailea

thats my point, trust me if the SAMs did nto do that, the DNC would have a much harder time doing that. DNC can main heal, but only with the right setup.

That wasn't your point... Your point was DNCs cannot main cure.

My point is that often, decently geared DNCs can. Shikikoyo is an once every 15 to 20 minute thing; it helped, but hardly a DNC would be waiting on with bated breath.

Now, I wouldn't make a merit party with DNC as the only source of curing; a secondary source for HP recovery is good. Then again, I wouldn't make a merit party with RDM as the only source of curing, either. (Which is why I never seek on RDM anymore.)

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

DNC/WAR is a hate machine. Reducing damage taken is the major issue. If they can hit for more than zero while maxing out evasion, I see them tanking as well as PLD/WAR and PLD/DNC in merits and xp. Joyeuse would be icing on the cake.

Lv75 Player v. Lv81 Enemy
PLD/DNC (90 TP)
Open fight with Flash for 180 CE & 1280 VE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 571 CE & 5434 VE

PLD/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Flash for 180 CE & 1280 CE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
400 DMG WS for 571 CE & 1714 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 896 CE & 5666 VE

DNC/WAR (120 TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 596 CE & 7174 VE

Evasion / TP Build
Totals: EVA+63, EVA SKILL+7, ACC+32
Main: Azoth EVA+4, ACC+4
Sub: N/A
Ranged: ???
Ammo: ???
Head: Optical Hat - EVA+10, ACC+10
Neck: Evasion Torque - EVA Skill+7
Earring 1: Melody Earring - EVA+5
Earring 2: Melody Earring - EVA+5
Body: Scorpion Harness - EVA+10, ACC+10
Hands: Tactician Magician's Cuffs - EVA+5 or Master Caster's Mitts AGI+2, EVA+10
Ring 1: Ulthalam's Ring - ACC+4
Ring 2: Ecphoria Ring - ACC+4
Back: Bat Cape - EVA+5
Waist: Scouter's Rope - EVA+10
Legs: Akinji Salvars - EVA+4
Feet: Dancer's Shoes - EVA+5, ENMITY-2

Job Merits
Fan Dance - 20% damage reduction, ENMITY+15
Closed Position - EVA+15, ACC+15

Job Traits
Evasion Bonus III - EVA+35

Max Skill
Evasion = 256

Total DNC evasion with max skill, traits, evasion gear, job merits, and agility: 200+[(56+7)*0.9]+35+63+15+(70/2) = 404

Base THF evasion with max skill, traits, and agility: 200+(76*0.9)+48+(71/2) = 351

That should be well on the way to maxing (80%) evasion rate with the help of Blind. Remember THF can max evasion without Blind against VT enemies.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

DNC/WAR is a hate machine. Reducing damage taken is the major issue. If they can hit for more than zero with Defender and a Joyeuse, I think they can tank as well as PLD/WAR and PLD/DNC in merits and xp.

Lv75 Player v. Lv81 Enemy
PLD/DNC (90 TP)
Open fight with Flash for 180 CE & 1280 VE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 571 CE & 5434 VE

PLD/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Flash for 180 CE & 1280 CE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
400 DMG WS for 571 CE & 1714 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 896 CE & 5666 VE

DNC/WAR (120 TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 596 CE & 7174 VE

mmmmm Joyeuse... if I can only get that weapon, funny how much trouble I am having getting it -.-

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

That wasn't your point... Your point was DNCs cannot main cure.

My point is that often, decently geared DNCs can. Shikikoyo is an once every 15 to 20 minute thing; it helped, but hardly a DNC would be waiting on with bated breath.

Now, I wouldn't make a merit party with DNC as the only source of curing; a secondary source for HP recovery is good. Then again, I wouldn't make a merit party with RDM as the only source of curing, either. (Which is why I never seek on RDM anymore.)

no its still my point, if you need a special setup to do something, then that class can not do it normally, and there for "cant" do it.

[IfritnoItazura]

Um, you didn't say anything about setup in the post I quoted originally. You can't really claim your point was about something you didn't mention at all, but whatever.

Anyway, DNC can main cure w/out Shikikoyo; it helped (once in a while) in that particular party, since the SAMs were very aggressive, but didn't make or break the DNC. What's the special setup you're referring to?

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Um, you didn't say anything about setup in the post I quoted originally. You can't really claim your point was about something you didn't mention at all, but whatever.

Anyway, DNC can main cure w/out Shikikoyo; it helped (once in a while) in that particular party, since the SAMs were very aggressive, but didn't make or break the DNC. What's the special setup you're referring to?

the DNC you know must have a special gear setup then or something, because all the times I have seen DNC try to main heal (including myself) the TP just does not last.

Now I have yet to try and main heal with Relic, I know that would help, along with that earring that enhances cure power.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Kailea

the DNC you know must have a special gear setup then or something, because all the times I have seen DNC try to main heal (including myself) the TP just does not last.

Now I have yet to try and main heal with Relic, I know that would help, along with that earring that enhances cure power.

Umm... I already listed Joyeuse (off-hand) and Brutual Earring. Other than that, I know that person has a Peacock Charm, but was probably using Chivalrous Chain. Going to guess Swift Belt as the only haste gear; I was casting Haste, and BRD was giving March x2.

Was in full Artifact armor, including that funny throwing weapon. No Waltz potency earring, no Relic armor (at the time). Sole or Squid Sushi; I forgot which.

Joyeuse and Brutal Earring were really the only two outstanding items; the rest were pretty vanilla for a DNC75, unless the Swift Belt is unusual?

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Umm... I already listed Joyeuse (off-hand) and Brutual Earring. Other than that, I know that person has a Peacock Charm, but was probably using Chivalrous Chain. Going to guess Swift Belt as the only haste gear; I was casting Haste, and BRD was giving March x2.

Was in full Artifact armor, including that funny throwing weapon. No Waltz potency earring, no Relic armor (at the time). Sole or Squid Sushi; I forgot which.

Joyeuse and Brutal Earring were really the only two outstanding items; the rest were pretty vanilla for a DNC75, unless the Swift Belt is unusual?

ah Joyeuse ..... did not see you list that before (I am blind lol) that would explain it though


damn I want that sword even more now -.-

[Neverslip]

Originally Posted by wrongfeifong

I can solo charybis as a dnc

0.0

... really? I'm gonna have to look into that... thanks for the heads up.

On topic... Dnc does pretty well in Dynamis. Specially when you support the Whms, Blms, and Brds. Keep them alive with the insta heals and the alliance lives far longer.

Anything where zerging is needed and giving the mob TP doesn't matter is also a good time to have Dnc in the DD party giving Haste Samba (merited) which stacks with all other types of haste. Noticed that has helped a bit in Einherjar and the boss NM's you fight in some of the Dyna zones.

Off event stuff... campaign.. you're virtually unstoppable unless you run into a NM with a pension for spamming highly accurate MEGA HITS or crazy AoE+bind combos.

Help get Blu spells... can tank almost every thing I've ever been asked to help on with those.

Idk .. those are a few that come to mind but work is shutting me down... for now.

[Elwynn]

Originally Posted by Neverslip

Off event stuff... campaign.. you're virtually unstoppable unless you run into a NM with a pension for spamming highly accurate MEGA HITS or crazy AoE+bind combos.

What about those wonderful TP reset / amnesia moves from Gnats and other Dark Kindred? I don't even like them as WHM, since I started depending on Spirit Taker as an MP source. I can only guess how much fun they must be with DNC.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Neverslip

0.0

... really? I'm gonna have to look into that... thanks for the heads up.

Keep in mind people love to abuse the term "solo" in this game. You're not soloing it if you have people buffing and healing you. That and just about everything Wrongfeifong has ever posted has been misinformation.

If Charby were so commonly soloable we'd all know about it, what we do know is that any time you can get a group is that the drama was the plan.

[Armando]

Even if a DNC could solo Charybdis it would be impractical.

There's a reason it's highly recommended to have more than one tank for this thing. It's the fact that she's more likely to TP after smacking you 6 times than after smacking you just twice, and the fact that 3-6 hits leading into Cross Attack will kill you. In a fight this long (when low-manned) it's only a matter of time before it happens.

[Neverslip]

Originally Posted by Elwynn

What about those wonderful TP reset / amnesia moves from Gnats and other Dark Kindred? I don't even like them as WHM, since I started depending on Spirit Taker as an MP source. I can only guess how much fun they must be with DNC.

They are pretty annoying. Yet not too bad a problem... specially since I rarely run into them fighting for Sandy^^ But when I do... I save up my steps and Reverse Flourish ONLY when I need to do an ability. They're a pain to be sure but if you get your HP boost potion + shadows (ichi/ni) + Fan Dance and then are smart about your steps, you can survive alot more than I ever thought possible. Where those TP killing AoE's really p!ssed me off was on the Fomors you fight trying to get that Haste belt. At that level cap dnc doesn't have many of the toys you need to get around TP death.

Yeah in reference to Joytoy .. I have only fought Charby once and I was low 70'ish and we were a motley crew to say the least... we got ate. I wouldn't mind risking xp to see if it was possible... it's the /wait that wouldn't make a solo attempt worth it. Maybe if I happened to be down there and it was up, I'd try (if i was fully merited... specially Fan Dance) So yeah.. I see solo'n Charby as pretty impractical. More than likely if I camp it ... I'll get buddies to help at this point lol.

[ShepardG]

Dnc solo....I'd have to say it's feasable, but you'd need a shit load of luck and full merits, uber gear, etc.

Now "Dnc tanking charybdis" is highly effective, with a healer, and possibly a bard to proc the latent on those evasion skill + earrings. But honestly anything with Evasion B or above should have access to enough gear to raise their evasion up to around 300ish or so, and at that point you have a fairly effective tank. (subbing /nin of course)

(this includes PUP)