[Malacite]

Originally Posted by LilithAngel

Yes, /DRG at 30 until 60,

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you're talking about here.

What justification do you have for using accuracy food pre-50? DNC gets Accuracy Boost at 30 which more or less makes up for it's B rank dagger skill (and another at 50 like DRG IIRC? or is it 60? I know they get 2)

Yes DNC needs TP to function but you're not helping the party at all if you're just feeding TP to the mob. There's no reason DNC can't contribute to damaging the mob. As long as you're going to be swinging at it, you should be hurting it (and thus reducing the amount of healing you need to do)


Let's do a quick comparison in party play (since I already said Jacks are OK when solo since DNC has decent evasion and gets 2 evasion traits)

You standard sushi is +16% (17 for some HQ's) accuracy, no cap. This looks nice on paper until you realize that with what little accuracy you have in the lower to mid levels on top of the lack of really evasive mobs (except Mandies which are MNK and maybe Bats).

Now look at your attack rating. By 20 you've likely got easily around 100 or more attack, so why not pop a Roast Mutton and basically have berserk +2% for 3 hours? As noted, you'll likely be fighting crabs from 14-25 (Pugils have def up too) on top of using loldaggers which suck for a long time in terms of DPS so why not make the most of it?

You don't get Box Step until lv 30 either, at which point you should really start using /WAR for Berserk and later Double Attack (unless you want DW2 or at 60+ Meditate) to maximize your damage.

I'm not really all that convinced DNC needs sushi at all unless using a Joyeuse or fighting a very evasive enemy since you have a decent rank in Daggers, Quick Step, 2 Accuracy Traits and access to plenty of good accuracy equipment.


My philosophy is if you have to hit the mob, you'd better not just be poking it.

[LilithAngel]

The problem with all that, Mal, is that, once again, your theory looks like it lacks actual practice. Allow me to fill that in for you on how it actually works.

Starting off, "feeding TP" is the weak arguement of paranoia and idiot players. This is not HNM, it's just a simple XP party. If your party has to fear each and every single TP move because one player (out of how many will be fighting? 3-4? Get real) is feeding TP, then that party needs to die anyway: it's a party full morons. Everyone swinging is feeding TP, regardless of whether they swing for 1 or 1000 damage, the TP fed is the same. Sure, 1000 damage will kill faster, but I can guarantee you that that's not the tank that just did that, and the monster will know that too.

BTW, in case you missed it (it appears you did, since you're even bringing up "feeding TP" in the first place), Dancer got not one, not two, but three Subtle Blow traits, just to shut people like you up. A Thief with A- in Daggers and Triple Attack will do more to "feed TP" to a mob than a Dancer ever will. Dancer also gets Accuracy Bonus at 30 and 60 natively (Dragoon and Ranger's Acc Bonus never come into play because they don't stack with native traits). You will get Dragoon's Attack Bonus though, which is a benefit (you can get the same with Dark Knight as well, at the same level too, but Last Resort is a poor substitute for Berserk if you really must /WAR), as well as Jump, which is free TP (oh, and for you "feed TP" freaks out there, feeds no TP in return at all), which is oftentimes stronger than a normal attack.

Oh, and the /DRG gear is the major reason, BTW. 6% Haste and +6 Attack is nothing to scoff at. Coupled with Haste and Haste Samba at 45, you should be getting in a good number of swings. All the more reason to make sure they connect.

As for your comparison, a smart Dancer will only use Daggers until the skill is capped for that level, then go back to using H2H, which suffers no real penalty against crabs (other than what everyone else experiences anyways), then abandom them altogether by 25, when Daggers are actually worth a damn, and you won't see crabs again for a while anyways. By the time you do see them again, it's a moot point; the party should have ways to deal with that by now. If not, again, a gimp party that deserves to die (or at least have shitty XP).

Adding STR and Attack in your example to low base damage weapons gives about an extra 5-10, maybe 15 damage per swing (if it connects; I would be willing to call such an occurance a semi-critical, you get short spike damage, but it's not the norm). This is added to what is normally 5-11 damage base, so I don't see your point. Your DoT is still going to be on the low end (compared to actual DDs, hell, even vs a THF), and you're not even going to be concentrating on merely swinging, either. It won't add up over time enough to be worth it vs dedicated DDs. You're also giving up a lot on your support functions to become a DD (the main theme of Dancer, as noted by their merit abilities Saber and Fan Dance). Again, that's not what they (your party) invited you for.

Even when a Dancer gets Box Step, they still won't be using it before Quickstep, which is your moneymaker. Reducing Evasion > reducing Defense on your average enemy (harking back to "What's the point in hitting like a Mack truck if you can't connect to begin with"). If you can't connect, then your Sambas, Steps, and Flourishes go to waste, and you won't be popping off any Waltzes anytime soon. You can mitigate low damage through gear better than you can to mitigate misses through gear. The good Accuracy gear doesn't even begin to show up until you're starting to get out of mid-levels. Few exceptions exists, to be sure (such as Battle Gloves and PCC), but those are about it until you start to get into the late 40s, and on up to the 60s, when you should already have an idea of what's going on, what you need to do, and beyond the scope of this thread.

Mal, before you preach your philosophy, try to get some actual experience. While I said I agreed that sushi isn't good this low a level, it's still better than just about any other option that doesn't give Accuracy as well. Tuna being the best, since unless you're Elvaan, there's very little CHA food that's also good for any melee stats.

Dancer can be a DD, yes. But can be and is designed to be are two different things.

[Armando]

I lol every time someone brings up "feeds the mob TP" outside the context of multi-hit weapons or NMs. If it were such a big concern, I would expect Malacite never to invite any one-handed weapon users, because two-handers have much better damage/TP-given ratios.

My philosophy is if you have to hit the mob, you'd better not just be poking it.

This philosophy is flawed because its inverse ("if you're going to hit hard you better not be missing") is also true. Both philosophies are flawed because A) they both focus on extremes that seldom happen, B) the opposite situation is equally bad and more importantly C) they ignore the game's actual workings.

Accuracy is more important than Attack, and the reason has nothing to do with the fact that hitting hard doesn't help when you can't hit the mob. Attack and Accuracy both increase your damage from normal hits, but Attack won't help you WS more often; Accuracy does. In the case of DNC, Attack doesn't help you step/waltz/whatever more often; Accuracy does.

It's correct that sushi in the very early levels is dumb. From 10-25 I would favor Rice Dumplings (5 Acc + 25% Attack) simply because the difference between Rice Dumplings and Jack-o-Lanterns (10 Acc) is merely 2.5% Hit Rate. By 25, though, Sushi will already be giving ~15 Accuracy, and by 30 it'll be giving ~20 Accuracy. You may not be getting the ideal Attack/Accuracy ratio for doing damage, but like Lilith said, that's not the primary concern. +10% to your hit rate isn't trivial.

By the way crabs don't resist any kind of damage.

[Neverslip]

Currently progressing Dancer as Main job - up to Lvl 66 now. Here's what I ate....

Pre Lvl 45 or 50 - I used mithkabobs to get damage; because if you're hitting the mob for 0, you are not getting the TP you need to do all the support a party requires of you. If you are having trouble hitting, don't be afraid to ask for enfeeblements. The party mages should want you to gain TP so they can relish not having to heal people all the time.

Post 50 - I keep Crab Sushi and Mithkabobs on me but use more Crab Sushi because (similar to before) Steps need ACC to be landed in order to generate the necessary TP gain through Reverse Flourish thus maximizing the job's potential in party.

*I just bought some Rice Dumplings since they seemed a hybrid of ACC+ and ATTK+ which seems excellent to me. Will start to experiment tonight.

I didn't try Jack-o-Lanterns myself; but I don't believe any Dancer needs to concern themselves greatly with CHA until they get the WS Dancing Edge. CHA has very little effect on Waltzes until about when Dancing Edge is available, so I wasn't concerned with nerfing it at all. *Amt healed ='s (Trgt's VIT + Caster's CHA) x .25 + "base")x1* I've never had someone say "Wow your instant non-interuptable Waltz is NOT doing enough healing". I definitely think CHA should be a concern later; but a couple extra points at mid to low-lvl isn't worth the worry/gil pre-Dancing Edge and Curing Waltz III IMhO

Just my two gil.....

[Armando]

Pre Lvl 45 or 50 - I used mithkabobs to get damage; because if you're hitting the mob for 0, you are not getting the TP you need to do all the support a party requires of you. If you are having trouble hitting, don't be afraid to ask for enfeeblements. The party mages should want you to gain TP so they can relish not having to heal people all the time.

This isn't a good strategy - if you hit for 0, your party is trying to kill things that are way too high for it. And if that's the case, then your Accuracy is REALLY low. The only enfeeble that can reduce the mob's Evasion is Gravity anyways, and a RDM that has it should be using it either way.

The best Sushi for the cost is Squid Sushi +1. Sole is overpriced because people who don't know how stats work are willing to pay that much for 5 STR.

[Kailea]

Food will always depend on what gear you have on, like me, I have alot of ACC gear on, and it allows me to eat meat for attack

1-25
DNC/MNK
25-75
DNC/NIN
20-60
DNC/DRG
60-75
DNC/SAM

75
DNC/NIN (Joytoy awesomeness)
DNC/DRG (ultimate haste build)
DNC/WAR (Normal Haste build)


this is what I have so far in a nutshell, I really want to try DNC/WAR haste build, but I still need my shield and belt, and body for it

[Neverslip]

Originally Posted by Armando

This isn't a good strategy - if you hit for 0, your party is trying to kill things that are way too high for it. And if that's the case, then your Accuracy is REALLY low. The only enfeeble that can reduce the mob's Evasion is Gravity anyways, and a RDM that has it should be using it either way.

The best Sushi for the cost is Squid Sushi +1. Sole is overpriced because people who don't know how stats work are willing to pay that much for 5 STR.

I agree... Squid Sushi +1 (17k/stk) is the way to go... however, Meat Mithkabobs (3.5k/stk) and Crab Sushi (3-5k/stk) I can afford. I've only been playing for 8 months and struggle with gil accumulation already, so buying the "off-brand" stuff fits my budget... At this point, I would need to go through RMT sites to afford the "name-brand" food perfect for the job.

I also whole-heartedly agree that if I hit for 0, my party is probably trying mobs too high for them. The thing is, when the party invite comes, I usually take what I can get. Who knows when the next invite may be. Rarely have I ever been invited to a party to find its full of knowlegeable veteran players. More often than not it's a rag-tag bunch of thugs all wanting to get the experience as quickly as possible without a care for efficiency and you're lucky if they know how to use their maps correctly (if they have em).

So I'm basically saying... my route is the way of the poor lil' newbie. It'll definitely get ya there and you'll be fine; but there's far better roads to travel... I merely can't afford the ticket price.

[Malacite]

I took DNC to 35 so far using meat and have had very little if any issues with accuracy.

That +10 accuracy trait helps a lot to negate DNC's B skill rating on top of Quick Step, so excuse me for preferring to get a much more substantial boost out of HQ meats (I'm a 95 chef though so food is rarely an issue) as opposed to sushi or even dumplings.

Dumplings are only +20% attack btw Armando, and you don't see the full effect of them until the late 40's or early 50's which is why I prefer Juicy Mutton or Wild Dhalmel Steaks.

I don't disagree that accuracy is important, but daggers already swing rather quickly and I'd rather use attack food to balance out my damage since DNC's traits and abilities (along with the right gear) offset any acc issues nicely, at least early on.

+15-20 accuracy or +40 or more attack on top of berserk. You be the judge.

Admittedly there is a downside to that though; hitting really hard and fast like that on top of waltzes is bound to get hate pretty quickly. I personally just absolutely refuse to use accuracy foods before lv 40 at the earliest. In my experience the increased attack has always outweighed the much smaller boost to accuracy.

[Armando]

So I'm basically saying... my route is the way of the poor lil' newbie. It'll definitely get ya there and you'll be fine; but there's far better roads to travel... I merely can't afford the ticket price.

No offense but you need to figure out a way to get gil. If you can't even afford food I shudder to think what your gear looks like.

I took DNC to 35 so far using meat and have had very little if any issues with accuracy.

That +10 accuracy trait helps a lot to negate DNC's B skill rating on top of Quick Step, so excuse me for preferring to get a much more substantial boost out of HQ meats (I'm a 95 chef though so food is rarely an issue) as opposed to sushi or even dumplings.

Only because you're not parsing. There's no way to get a decent hit rate on a VT-IT mob with the gear available at level.

Dumplings are only +20% attack btw Armando, and you don't see the full effect of them until the late 40's or early 50's which is why I prefer Juicy Mutton or Wild Dhalmel Steaks.

What are you talking about? 20% Attack is 20% Attack no matter your level.

I don't disagree that accuracy is important, but daggers already swing rather quickly and I'd rather use attack food to balance out my damage since DNC's traits and abilities (along with the right gear) offset any acc issues nicely, at least early on.

And what does that have to do with anything? They swing rather quickly and they get proportionally small amounts of TP. Knives don't have significantly better TP gain than other weapons so you might as well be saying "Accuracy is important but I have earrings equipped."

Also bear in mind that +10% hit rate isn't a 10% improvement. If your hit rate is 70% - which it likely will be, if not lower - going from 70% to 80% is a 14% improvement in TP gain speed as well as damage/step success.

[Neverslip]

Originally Posted by Armando

No offense but you need to figure out a way to get gil. If you can't even afford food I shudder to think what your gear looks like.

No problem, none taken.

I find my Dancer gear more than adequate...

Full AF Armor (Tiara macro'd for Samba)
Potent Belt
Chivalrous Chain
Walkure Mask (saving for Wivre Msk)
Fang/Coral Earing
Ecphoria Ring/Garrulous Ring
Amemet Mantle (saving for +1, looking for Bushido)
Cermet Knife +1/Rapier
Hoola... er I mean War Hoop

I have not found much better to purchase at my current level. I'd love to quest for Promy Ring, Raparee Harness, and some other choice Rare/Excl but but that takes coordinating an LS... mines like herding cats.

So yes... my priority for where I spend my gil is with the gear before food. If it's a special instance (BCNM, NM fight, etc) I'll splurge for that 1/2hr of "SuperMan"; but, for regular down and dirty experience partying, I have done well so far with Toasty-O's instead of Honey Nut Cheerios.

I'm not saying Squid Sushi +1 is wrong ... just more gil than I need to spend.

[Kailea]

all DNC af (but feet) ( and legs should be replaced ASAP) should not be worn, but macroed in.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

What are you talking about? 20% Attack is 20% Attack no matter your level.

20% vs 27%, that's my point. And the attack speed was more about dealing damage than gaining TP.

[Armando]

Originally Posted by Malacite

20% vs 27%, that's my point. And the attack speed was more about dealing damage than gaining TP.

I was talking about the fact that you said "you won't even get the full benefit of them (the dumplings) until the late 40's or early 50's." Also, whether you're using a low delay or high delay weapon is irrelevant on its own, it's the weapon's DPS that matters (and DNC weapons aren't very good at having high DPS.)

@Neverslip: I take it back, your gear isn't as bad as I thought (but it still needs some work.) You should get Battle Gloves, Jaridah Bazubands or Battle Bracers +1 for your hand slot. Body should be Scorpion Harness. You need to ditch the Garrulous Ring, it's not a proper substitute for a real Accuracy ring; get Venerer at the very least, though obviously Woodsman/Sniper's is preferable. You should get a Scorpion Harness for the body slot. Forget about Amemet Mantle +1 until you're done with the other upgrades; the improvement in performance isn't worth the price tag on it.

In my opinion you should sell Potent Belt and buy Life Belt. Pretty much the same performance at a much lower price, and you can use the money you got back to buy the other upgrades.

Also, what's up with the Rapier? You lose 24 Acc and Attack (compared to using daggers) using it.

[Dymlos]

Besides, the only time DNC will start DDing is when they hit Lv 62 (or Lv 60 w/dagger merits) when you learn Dancing Edge. Then it's going to be fun. Building Flourish + Wild Flourish + Dancing Edge = fun!

[Neverslip]

Originally Posted by Armando

Also, what's up with the Rapier? You lose 24 Acc and Attack (compared to using daggers) using it.

The swords I've used as DNC were cheap although hard to find on AH. I liked the look and having taken Thf to 37 I was sick to death of poking things with daggers. The D rating in Sword really didn't start making a difference til I just reached 60. Aside from merely liking the look, it allowed me to skill up Sword for when I start growing Rdm. The Rapier was my last sword I'd use for Dnc til I get the joy toy.

I was wondering if I should buy a Scorpion Harness... Life belt I have and thought the Poten Belt would help damage as I have very little trouble hitting the mob and more trouble causing it damage. Like you said, parties are impatient and wreckless these days so they usually do bite off bigger mobs than they can chew.