All i see is /Nin...

[little ninja]

Riiight like Dancers have been around for very long, and already they are getting thrown into the /NIN norm. Not like people gave it a chance to try anything else.

Cors were subbing /nin when they hit Quifim. blues were doing it as well. People are attracted to the D.W look. Parties are attracted to it for the shadows. Shadows = less damage taken = less cures wasted = more cures for tank = more exp overall.

[Silent Howler]

Cors were subbing /nin when they hit Quifim. blues were doing it as well. People are attracted to the D.W look. Parties are attracted to it for the shadows. Shadows = less damage taken = less cures wasted = more cures for tank = more exp overall.

There is also this thing called "tanking."

[IfritnoItazura]

Then explain this:

* Single Weilding with no Rajas nets me 10% TP for two attacks.
* Dual Weilding with no Rajas nets me 9% when using identical daggers when both swings hit.
* Dual Weilding with Rajas and the same two daggers gives me 10% TP.


So either you're wrong or you're telling me I'm imagining the effect of Store TP +5 putting me at 10% on two hits of DW and only imagining I was getting 9% before while DWing.

I'm going with "you're wrong."

When I put on Raja's DWing as /NIN, I instantly matched what i was getting single-wield from two swings without Rajas, is that so hard to understand? You think I'm just making up the difference between the first 29 levels and the last 14?

Windurtian Knives, as if it matters.

The Store TP +5 alone put me back at or near what I had lost from DWing on /NIN.

Now that you've named the weapons, I'll explain: you were looking at the wrong numbers. To be more specific, you overlooked some other numbers.

The idea of "faster" and "slower" TP'ing isn't about TP per hit or TP per round; it's TP per unit time. ("Speed", is always about "time".)


Windurstian Knife

Dly: 185
1 sec = 60 delay

Windurstian Knife x1

Dly = 185
TP/round = 5.0 + ((185-180) * 6.5)) / 270
= 5.0 + (5 * 6.5) / 270
= 5.0 + 32.5/270
= 5.0 + 0.1
= 5.1

TP/sec = (TP/round) / (delay/round) * (delay/sec)
= 5.1 / 185 * 60
~= 1.654 TP/sec

Windurstian Knife x2, Dual Wield Lv.I

Dly = (185 + 185) * (100% - 10%)
= 370 * 90%
= 333
Dly/hand = 333/2
= 166

TP/hand = 5.0 + ((166-180) * 1.5) / 180
= 5.0 + (-14 * 1.5) / 180
= 5.0 + -21/180
= 5.0 + -0.1
= 4.9


TP/round = (TP/hand) * 2
= 9.8

TP/sec = (TP/round) / (delay/round) * (delay/sec)
= 9.8 / 333 * 60
~= 1.766 TP/sec

DeltaTP/MIN = (1.766 TP/sec - 1.654 Tp/sec) * 60 sec/min
= 0.112 Tp/sec * 60 sec/min
= 6.72 TP/min

While the difference isn't great, Dual Wield I does have the edge for TP gain. If, as you say, every bit of TP counts for DNC, then DWI has a (small) advantage, at approximately 6.72 more TP per minute of battle. (Well, that's assuming 100% hit rate. Actual differences would be less, but still in favor of DWI.)

In other words,

You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs.

is a false statement, since you do not lose TP from DW--at least, not under the scenario you've provided.

Still think I'm wrong? Go poke VZX.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Really, I dont know what you're trying to argue about here, Itaz. Its almost like you're wanting to believe Rajas doesn't do anything. That would be like saying Tamas or Sattva Ring don't do anything, either.

Your math just said it. 9.8 TP per round from Dual Wielding two windurst knives, 5.1 TP from single wield.

Two swings single wield is what, kids? 10.2? Right. How much more is that than 9.8?

.4, right again!

Does Store TP +5 put us back over 10 TP on DW?

Yes, it does. So DWing with the Raja's puts us around where we were SWing and would lead to more TP gain over time.

[Saren]

Really, I dont know what you're trying to argue about here, Itaz. Its almost like you're wanting to believe Rajas doesn't do anything. That would be like saying Tamas or Sattva Ring don't do anything, either

Where does it say anything about a rajas ring not doing anything in Itazura's post? I don't see anything saying that a rajas doesn't improve your TP over time.

What he is saying is that yes you might get slightly less TP back in your two swings dual wielding than you do single wielding (both without a rajas but your two hits when dual wielding take slightly less time than two hits single wielding. This give DW a slightly better tp/time rate.

His point is that tp/time is different to tp/round.

[Jonastb]

All I can say about Dual Wield is my experience with 75 levels of BST. Whenever I subbed WHM, I would have about 105-110 TP by the end of the fight. Just enough to finish off the mob.

However, whenever I subbed NIN, which was most of the time, I always had a minimum of 150 TP by the end of the fight. So looking at that, you do gain more TP over time with Dual Wield.

And no, I don't have SS or parses because I play on a PS2.

I would also like to know what SAM actually brings to DNC besides Meditate. Because Meditate alone would not be all that usefull over time. And most of SAMs abilities require 2 handed weapons, which DNC doesn't use.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Where does it say anything about a rajas ring not doing anything in Itazura's post? I don't see anything saying that a rajas doesn't improve your TP over time.

Here:

In other words,

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs.
is a false statement, since you do not lose TP from DW--at least, not under the scenario you've provided.

Still think I'm wrong? Go poke VZX.

There is nothing false about my statement.

You lose .2% TP from DW from SW, Rajas makes it back up and puts you at 10%

Its just another non-correction discussion coming from Itaz. He'll find something every week and try to correct something that isn't incorrect to start with. Last week, it was the "Clan Linkshell" topic, this week, its some negligable math.

[Ellipses]

I would also like to know what SAM actually brings to DNC besides Meditate. Because Meditate alone would not be all that usefull over time. And most of SAMs abilities require 2 handed weapons, which DNC doesn't use.

Store TP II, Zanshin, and Third Eye (not as good without Seigan, but it's still there).

[Saren]

There is nothing false about my statement.

You lose .2% TP from DW from SW, Rajas makes it back up and puts you at 10%

I think this is a slight misunderstanding.

Itazura's point is that dual wield gives you marginally more TP over time, thats right. You do not lose TP from dual wielding, you lose tp/hit but (in this case) gain tp/time.

Your point is that if you switch to dual wield and you aren't using a rajas you don't get 10 TP from your first two hits, thats also right because you do get 0.2% less TP per connected swing, you are just swinging slightly more often which, over time, more than makes up for the loss per swing.

It's just because of how the numbers fall out and because of how small a TP gain advantage dual wield gives you.

[Kailea]

why such a fuss anyway over something so small, you all said it yourself the difference is of a small amount, so why even argue?

[Lunaryn]

There is a slight point to be made that requiring three hits instead of two to reach the threshold for the lower sambas is going to slow down a DNC's first battle after zoning or changing weapons. Omg doesn't seem to be making that point, though, just trolling around it. From experience I can say he's too intelligent not to understand what's going on (Delay reduction effects always lower TP/hit, not TP gain rate) and is just looking for a fight.

This is getting so old...

[IfritnoItazura]

From experience I can say he's too intelligent not to understand what's going on (Haste effects always lower TP/hit, not TP gain rate) and is just looking for a fight.

Actually, Haste does not alter TP/hit, but strongly improves TP/unit time. Dual Wield alters TP/hit (reduces it), but improves DoT, adds an extra hit to WS, and in general increases TP gain rate (TP/unit time) slightly.

As for BBQ, he got in his head I'm mistaken, and won't admit he's wrong because he thought he wrote down "facts". Doesn't really alter what's true or not; he implied DWI reduces TP gain rate, which just isn't true for the weapon he named, unless I did my math wrong.

Rajas Ring doesn't "make up" DWI's slower TP gain, because in general DWI does not have slower TP gain to begin with. (Nothing wrong with the statement that Rajas Ring improves TP gain for DWI, though--just like it improves TP gain for single wield.)

[Yellow Mage]

Game Point: Itaz.

I mean, seriously, he does have a point. Plus, I believe that 'kitten once chastised the community for once looking at exp/kill as opposed to exp/hour at one point; this is essentially the same thing.

[Armando]

Itaz is correct. The entire line of thought of "1 swing for 5.1 TP is better than two swings for 9.8 TP because 5.1x2=10.2, (please overlook the fact that it takes longer to hit twice while single wielding than while dual wielding)" was lame.

Dual Wield gets to swing twice at the beginning of every fight anyways. If we're only analyzing DW vs single wield, Dual Wield won before the discussion began.

[fencingkitty]

>.> TP math aside, it's really about what your party as a whole needs.

I'm part of a static on my 56 DNC thats DNC, PLD, COR, RDM, SAM and we pick up a random 6th whenever. Seeing as the War Hoop costs me nothing to throw v. my COR's bullets (interrupting his roll cycle aside) I wind up debuffing, main healing, and pulling. I could care less that I'm swinging two daggers and more that yes...I do have shadows to save me and my TP as I pull back to camp, or w/e I pull hate Waltzing the PLD (or the SAM /sigh...they have hate wars).

As a DRG main yeah I have it leveled, but for the amount of haste the /DRG gear gives, unless you have all of it and a raparee+swift I'd say wait till ~70's if you wanna sink for dusk pieces, IF your acc still is sufficient. Yeah, you get TP from Jumps and an attack bonus, but really...figure your roll? Are you there for DD? Are you there for main heal? Are you there for sub-tank? Are you there for pulling? Are you there for all of the above? ( ; ; that'd be a yes)

Then the sub is situational, like everything else in this game. ^^

Just my opinion, YMMV

((omg I haven't posted in forever...I need to change my avatar ; ; ))