[Kasandaro]

Cause we haven't had this fight yet ... ^^ What're you using as subjob in party? Me, when soloing, I've been using /nin (though I'm horrible about casting utsusemi). Parties, post 20, I've used /war and /nin and prefer /war. I've been thinking about trying /sam for Third Eye and Store TP. Opinions?

[MrMageo]

I liked drg myself till 37 and would probably use it till 60 then go /sam.
It just offers so much more than ninja. (which I use for soloing)

/drg

- jump, good for a quick TP boost
- attack boost, helps with not hitting for 0
- wyvern gear haste-% latent unlocked by /drg, haste speaks for itself

the only con is no DW or shadows for when you get hate from curing. However the haste and jump ability are great replacements.

[LilithAngel]

Yeah, I'm using /drg myself until 60, then it's /sam all the way.

-Attack and Accuracy Bonus; that combo's pretty hard to beat in a subjob for the levels you get them at.

-Jump: as mentioned before, extra damage output, and TP.

-/drg gear: 6% haste total and +6 Attack isn't anything to scoff at, and if you happen to have one of the good lvl 50-55 haste belts, it will really be noticeable once you put them on.

All /nin gives you is shadows. Dual Wield only gives you an off-hand weapon; TP gain is roughly the same regardless. What /drg will offer is more swings that won't hit for 0, thus netting you good TP returns.

Once you hit 60, however, /sam is where it's at. No other sub will net you as much TP, nor give you TP on the spot when you need it. My only question here would be if SE ninja'd Hasso to where you can't swap out a staff for a 1h weapon and keep the boosts.

[Malacite]

I used /BRD for the Dunes, then /DRG as well for 20~29, then switched off to /WAR at 30. I was originally planning to use RNG sub for the accuracy bonus, but as it turned out DNC got that at 15 :D

Eventually I'm going to need to switch to accuracy foods because of DNC's B(B-?) rating in daggers, but for now Berserk and Meat suit me just fine. I figure if I'm going to be constantly meleeing for TP for dances I may as well contribute some decent damage too.

NIN sub is for pussies


Nah seriously though it can be a good sub especially if you're in a situation where you have to spam Waltzes (which will rack up quite a lot of hate) so it's nice to have the shadows at those times but generally I prefer /WAR.

If DNC is your main healer in PT of more than 4 people you're already in trouble anyway.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by LilithAngel

All /nin gives you is shadows. Dual Wield only gives you an off-hand weapon; TP gain is roughly the same regardless. What /drg will offer is more swings that won't hit for 0, thus netting you good TP returns.

Well, I don't think you're selling /NIN quite well enough. Remember that Dual Wield gives you a 10% delay reduction which is better than the 5% Haste you're getting from Wyvern Earring. Also remember that Jump's value decreases with very light weapons like daggers that return roughly 5% TP per hit (as opposed to the 13% range of larger weapons like lances). Therefore, Jump is only giving you 5% TP every 90 seconds which isn't great, and I'm sure isn't equivalent to the extra 5% Haste you lose from not having Dual Wield.

You can also use /NIN to get Dual Wield at 20th level, 10 levels before you can use Wyvern Earring.

I'm pretty sure you haven't sold me on /DRG yet. I am, however, with you on /SAM at 60+.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

Well, I don't think you're selling /NIN quite well enough. Remember that Dual Wield gives you a 10% delay reduction which is better than the 5% Haste you're getting from Wyvern Earring.

The catch is this: a delay reduction doesn't have the same TP benefit as actual Haste. Dual Wield lowers TP gain proportionately to the delay; as such, it only helps raise DoT, not TP gain -- and TP gain is what DNC needs. Haste, however, doesn't proportionately lower TP gain.

On the other hand, DNC gets Accuracy Bonus natively, so only the Attack Bonus helps from /DRG as far as job traits. The rest is valid, though. -- Pteryx

[LadyKiKi]

I intend to use BST. It's totally broken (powerful), I'll never die, given what I've seen.

[VZX]

EDIT:
wrong forum

[Ziero]

a 10% delay reduction lowers the TP gain you per hit you get so really it's not all that much better. The strength for DW is the offhand weapon stats and extra hit on the WS, neither of those are really all that great at low lvls though. At endgame however DW+Haste gear would greatly increase the amount of swings you get so it's more effective then.

Dnc basically faces all the same problems that Thf does in chosing a sub, both jobs need to gain a lot of TP in a short amount of time using a low delay weapon.
______________________________

Originally Posted by VZX

/DRG /NIN /THF /WAR
in that order

There is no reason to sub /thf in a pt. Ever.

[Malacite]

Nope. DNC gets 3/4 evasion bonus traits on it's own, and SATA aren't worth it at all either so no point in /THF.

BST sub is without question the best sub for soloing. It's too damn bad SE nerfed the Samabas working on pets though ><

[MrMageo]

Its all based on level, really.

20-50 I would highly recomend /drg for th above reasons. After this /nin become more viable an option in parties because both whm and rdm will have access to haste. This makes the approx-1% TP per attack round really a non issue with the rate of attack you get from DW+Haste. On the other hand if you look at the mobs you generally fight at this level (beetles in basement of garlaige, Crabs in Kuftal) Hiting for zero o these PLD type mobs is a quick way for no TP gain, even hitting for 1 will net you 5%+/- TP. /DRG wins IMO until you can /SAM and get meditate, it with reverse flourish makes DNC a very high self TP producing job with acctually never needing to hit the enemy at all. Since you will not be using WS's the added bonus of having a 2nd hit from an offhand weapon is redundant, ad well as using sata from /thf. As for WAR in the low to middle levels (30-60) the trait Double Attack is highly benificial (on paper). Also at these levels you can make a very good situational, ghetto PLD tank. With animated flourish, provoke, and Waltz you can very easily be a situational tank and even a back up tank, 1st voke for sata, voke for utsu cast etc etc.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Dancer:
/Samurai: Default/EXP
/Ninja: NEVER (My Dancer is 62, I benefit more with Store TP and Meditate)

[Malacite]

5 haste, 10 attack and jump do not beat berserk and double attack, especially given the already low delay of daggers.

[MrMageo]

I disagree, personally I used H2H and didnt dick around with daggers, 15% TP>5% in this case Jump is > then a double atack dagger, and haste beats out berserk.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

The catch is this: a delay reduction doesn't have the same TP benefit as actual Haste. Dual Wield lowers TP gain proportionately to the delay; as such, it only helps raise DoT, not TP gain -- and TP gain is what DNC needs. Haste, however, doesn't proportionately lower TP gain.

Ahh.. Right, Right...

Originally Posted by http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dual_Wield

When dual wielding weapons with different Delays, the average Delay (reduction included) is used for the TP calculations; both weapons will gain the same TP.

So DW doesn't give any Haste with respect to TP gain, just DPS. The /NIN whores are all about it as a "Haste" effect. I must have been deceived.

The H2H thing worked well in Yhoator, but that was the last time I saw a DNC with H2H on--after about Viper Bite level, they really seem go for the Daggers (even though they never use it). I'm assuming it's because of the Accuracy dip. Maybe /DRG would allow DNC to use H2H longer.

I can really see using /DRG now, especially post 30. Before Wyvern Earring, I don't think the TP gain on H2H or Dagger would be significant enough for me to prefer it over /MNK if using H2H or /NIN if using Daggers. I'll amend my feelings to...

?-30: /MNK (party) using H2H
30-59: /DRG using Dagger (too bad DNC can't use Centurion's Sword)
60-75: /SAM using Dagger

Now, I've not seen very many DNC's use their TP for WS. Has anyone tried tossing a WS and then using Meditate to recover?