[Spider-Dan]

So your entire party is based upon the premise of having both camps open, otherwise it doesn't work. Nice.

But if all I have to do is provide an expwatch screenshot to win this discussion, that's fine, too. Am I also allowed to take a pic 20 minutes into the party? Just checking before I go get a screencap of expwatch saying that I'm making 50k/hr.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

tl;dr version of thread:

• Impractical weapon recommendation for majority of players (unless you REALLY like fishing). Joyeuse is easier to obtain... if you like long NM respawns.
  
• Denial of COR/DNC being more effective, even though it lowers healer's MP costs, refreshes frontline MP users, lowers mob defense and evasion on top of all the buffs COR can provide. Yes, personal epeen damage from /WAR is clearly better than boosts to the other people in PT.
  
• Pointless bickering about who is getting the best EXP per hour.
  
• Selective quotes blown out of context.

[ShepardG]

I was pretty sure i had this thread with my post ^^ but I clearly have been trumped. BBq wins

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

[*]Denial of COR/DNC being more effective, even though it lowers healer's MP costs, refreshes frontline MP users, lowers mob defense and evasion on top of all the buffs COR can provide. Yes, personal epeen damage from /WAR is clearly better than boosts to the other people in PT.

While your post is achingly hilarious and all that, /war has zero to do with e-peen and all about maximising your job's effectiveness in the party and by extension the rate of exp/hour. With my usual setup, this being a rdm, cor, DDx3 (usually a mix of drg/sam/war), and bard, the healer has no MP issues, no-one dies, and we have constant kills averaging 10-25 seconds leading on to chain 100-200 depending on party length. Adding /cor to that equation reduces overall damage output whilst providing options no-one needs. Now, in parties where the healer has MP issues or melee are under-geared leading to longer kill times and increased damage taken I concede having a cor/dnc to help out would be beneficial. Fortunately I don't often find myself in those parties so it's a moot point. That said, I've pretty much done with merit parties now anyway as I've ran out of merits to earn short of levelling a new 75.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

So your entire party is based upon the premise of having both camps open, otherwise it doesn't work. Nice.

Still need to work on that reading comprehension thing. Usually I have both camps open, however, it's not always the case and we will sometimes pull wivres or mamool as a last resort in addition to trimming pops off the upper/lower camp if the party there is killing slowly. As to the last, I don't really like that situation after being on the receiving end all too often but it seems to fall under the, "If we don't they will" category with most parties there now.

[Flanteus]

lolexpwatch
and I was thinking expwatch was accurate...dunno, in a /nin low dmg merit party i parsed 25k/h , in an other crazy merit party (where dd could kill a bird in 3-5 sec) i parsed 52k/h.
both parties with Mkris + /dnc ( i just love healing , wish waltz didnt have long CD tho ).

peace..

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

While your post is achingly hilarious and all that, /war has zero to do with e-peen and all about maximising your job's effectiveness in the party and by extension the rate of exp/hour. With my usual setup, this being a rdm, cor, DDx3 (usually a mix of drg/sam/war), and bard, the healer has no MP issues, no-one dies, and we have constant kills averaging 10-25 seconds leading on to chain 100-200 depending on party length. Adding /cor to that equation reduces overall damage output whilst providing options no-one needs. Now, in parties where the healer has MP issues or melee are under-geared leading to longer kill times and increased damage taken I concede having a cor/dnc to help out would be beneficial. Fortunately I don't often find myself in those parties so it's a moot point. That said, I've pretty much done with merit parties now anyway as I've ran out of merits to earn short of levelling a new 75.

I can't believe it has to be explained, but here goes anyway:

When you sub /WAR only your damage gets a benefit.

When you sub /DNC and use things like Quickstep or Boxstep with existing buffs, every melee benefits and the damage gained cumulatively from everyone because of those steps, sambas and buffs will far exceed what a COR/WAR can bring to the table.

What you lose in TP and doamage output is of no importance in contrast to what is gained by all.

[ShepardG]

Sooooooo, Had my first 75 Corsair merit party last night. I went /nin with Joy/M.Kris. found that even with a shit ton of Ranged Acc on my gear, that I still had like a 40% ACC rating on Slug Shot. But i had somewere around 80% Melee Acc. So I ate some Squid sushi and I'll have to say, It was a world of difference. we avg'd between 21k-25k an hour. Wasn't too bad considering most players gear was meh.

I will also say, i f'ing love cor

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

When you sub /DNC and use things like Quickstep or Boxstep with existing buffs, every melee benefits and the damage gained cumulatively from everyone because of those steps, sambas and buffs will far exceed what a COR/WAR can bring to the table.

Okay, once again, if the mobs are dying in 10-25 seconds the benefit from Quick/Boxstep is negligble. You can only apply one Step every 15 seconds to a target but if your melee are struggling to hit the mob so bad they need a whopping -8 Evasion on birds or -5% Defense then I'm sure they're happy for you to gimp yourself so they can perform to a level they should be at anyway. As for Sambas, I agree they have a place in certain party setups but in my usual parties they're not required. Also, as I've already mentioned, if you're partied with a Scholar casting en-spells on your melee then you can forget your Sambas as they're overwritten.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Okay, once again, if the mobs are dying in 10-25 seconds the benefit from Quick/Boxstep is negligble.

Funny, because I thought it was exactly hitrate+4% or defense -5% regardless of how quickly the mob dies.

Does Dia2 become less important when the mob dies quickly? How about Minuet? What about Haste spell?

You can only apply one Step every 15 seconds to a target but if your melee are struggling to hit the mob so bad they need a whopping -8 Evasion on birds or -5% Defense then I'm sure they're happy for you to gimp yourself so they can perform to a level they should be at anyway.

I find it rather hilarious that you talk about party members "struggling so bad" that they need extra help... when you are playing a support job. Maybe if your party members were really good, they wouldn't need rolls, either!

As for Sambas, I agree they have a place in certain party setups but in my usual parties they're not required. Also, as I've already mentioned, if you're partied with a Scholar casting en-spells on your melee then you can forget your Sambas as they're overwritten.

If you're meriting with a SCH then discussions about efficiency are irrelevant, as you've already failed because:

a) you don't have Haste, or
b) you have more than one mage

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Funny, because I thought it was exactly hitrate+4% or defense -5% regardless of how quickly the mob dies.

Apart from the fact he was referring to the cumulative benefit of /dnc abilities versus the raw additional damage contributed by /war. When the target is dying in such a short timeframe there are clearly no issues with hit rates and damage level and the additional benefit gained in that timeframe versus the additional melee damage from /war would be tiny to non-existent.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Does Dia2 become less important when the mob dies quickly? How about Minuet? What about Haste spell?

Most people don't bother casting Dia in bird parties for obvious reasons. If you're throwing in a few mamools or wivres then fair enough but they won't be the majority of your kills. The other two buffs you mentioned are targetted on the players and not the mobs and as such they persist after the target's death. You really needed that explaining to you though right?

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

I find it rather hilarious that you talk about party members "struggling so bad" that they need extra help... when you are playing a support job. Maybe if your party members were really good, they wouldn't need rolls, either!

Firstly, I view a corsair as an enhancing job. Properly geared and played they can lay down exceptional damage that traditional support jobs could never hope to achieve whilst improving the abilities through rolls of the other five party members. Secondly, you were the one stating your playstyle relates to "elite" parties so please don't QQ so hard when I base my findings around well played and geared DD.

While I originally believed you had problems with your reading comprehension I can see now you're clearly bent on trying to take comments out of context in some vain attempt to win an imaginary point. I've honestly tried to discuss this with you relatively insult-free but if your future responses are more of the same then I'll be saving myself the time of dignifying your posts with a response.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Apart from the fact he was referring to the cumulative benefit of /dnc abilities versus the raw additional damage contributed by /war. When the target is dying in such a short timeframe there are clearly no issues with hit rates and damage level and the additional benefit gained in that timeframe versus the additional melee damage from /war would be tiny to non-existent.

So if I understand correctly:

adding 5% hitrate and mobDEF-5% for everyone (including you) is inconsequential
HOWEVER
adding 15% ATK (25% * 3/5) solely to the least damaging DD (you) is a game-changer?

Most people don't bother casting Dia in bird parties for obvious reasons.

Wrong, for exactly the same reasons as above.

I find it interesting that you seem to dismiss "small" debuffs like Box Step and Dia, yet you seem to value debuffs like Angon and buffs like Berserk a great deal.

Box Step (LV1) is DEF-5%
Dia2 is DEF-10%
Dia3 is DEF-15%
Angon is DEF-20%
Berserk is ATK+~15% (25% * 3/5)

So Angon is a massive difference maker, but having Dia3+Box Step (which does THE SAME THING) on every mob (instead of once every three minutes) is a waste of time? Berserk's extra 15% ATK (for you alone) is drastic, but removing 15% of the mob's DEF (which helps all of the DDs, not just you) with Dia2 and Box Step is insignificant nitpicking?

The other two buffs you mentioned are targetted on the players and not the mobs and as such they persist after the target's death. You really needed that explaining to you though right?

Box Step and Dia can be applied to literally every mob, so I fail to see the distinction.

Secondly, you were the one stating your playstyle relates to "elite" parties so please don't QQ so hard when I base my findings around well played and geared DD.

As your post shows once again, the difference between "elite" parties and everyday parties is attention to detail. You are completely willing to forsake easily applied incremental boosts, and are only interested in the big, flashy bonuses.

With that kind of mindset, I can imagine a person standing around saying "we could kill a wivre if we had Angon" while their RDM is sitting on nearly-full MP and their COR is subbing WAR.