[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, to modifiy your current approach, well in two levels from now anyway, you probably want to consider getting a Martial gun. This will keep you from sitting on your TP since 100% TP counts as 200% TP with Martial gun.

Its never really been clear how much accuracy that extra 100% gives for your Slugshots, though it has proven to help the damage potential of Detonator. That and Detonator is the more accurate WS. Even so, both Slugshot and Detonator end up pretty close in damage potential so this is somewhat of a matter of preference for EXP. Detonator wins out for higher-evasion endgame mobs, that is, if you're afforded time to shoot things there. Sometimes its just not the case.

As for the damage question, you'll probably need some help with attack stats, there are plenty of places to get in STR, but Attack+ gear not so much unless you want to give up slots you've invested accuracy in. Using a Phantom Roll to boost your stats is fine so long as the melees are getting something out of it, which in this case would be a given as its Chaos Roll, just consider there will be times where your damage output is not the most important and other buffs might be needed.

Its not unreasonable to hold out for PTs with a BRD, as they can supply the attack buffs and you can do something else besides Chaos or even stack it. This might not always be a practical solution for others, I'm just that shrewd.

How are you on your Haste build, btw?

[Grizzlebeard]

Can someone with experience of cor/dnc please explain to me what the job contributes over say cor/war. I get the whole extra healing thing but a rdm should be more than enough in a decent merit party and I see the added heals generating more hate while kneecapping your damage output and, ultimately, the party's exp gain.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, for one thing, if we have BLU, DRK and PLD in those PTs, COR/DNC gains the ability to refresh the frontline with Aspir Samba and give them two melee buffs rather than coat the entire party with Evoker's Roll for their sake. So long as the mob has MP and these party members are present, Aspir Samba is the #1 reason to sub /DNC in this situation. That and you know its going to behoove RDMs and BRDs to refresh some of these guys right away.

Additionally, the steps lower mob evasion and defense, which gives things like Chaos and Hunter's roll more benefits or can even open the door to other options for buffing. If the party's accuracy is decent, you might only need a step to cover that and can go for another Phantom Roll. If you end up going against trolls or other higher DEF/HP mobs, /DNC is going to offer more endurance to the PT than /WAR would.

Plus if the party just isn't confidant in a single healer, this is a much more tolerable solution in contrast to going /WHM because you don't have to give up melee gear in favor of MP gear.

Will COR/DNC lose out on damage? Yeah, a fair bit depending upon the needs of a party. But you'll still be able to contribute fair amounts of damage and with a good haste and Store TP build, its just obscene how well you can keep up with a Joytoy or MK.

I prefer this combination in Dynamis as well, its not perfect for everything in endgame, but Dynami, Assault and Nyzul, its got a lot of great tools going for it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I'm lucky in that I party with a bard friend 99% of the time and we merit with a rdm and three other DD jobs, never paladins or blue mages. Even factoring in what a cor/dnc brings to a party I'd still be more likely to wait for an optimally balanced one than try and cheese it /dnc because despite all of the perceived bonuses I just struggle to see a party with a paladin and cor/dnc in it killing at a decent rate.

As for endgame stuff, I do very little now outside of Dynamis where I generally go /whm. I find less and less reason to do Sea, ZNMs, Limbus, Ein, Kings, and Sky due to the shitty gear itemisation for corsair in those events. Outside of Dynamis and Salvage there's little to focus on with the exception of the +1 upgrade from Limbus for the corsair bottes as the moogle add-on pretty much destroyed the need to upgrade the tricorne. It's not really fair on people me joining a Limbus shell for one upgrade and then taking off afterwards, I know plenty of other people wouldn't care but it's not my style. Go go offtopic rambling.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

When I am actively playing, I still usually go /RNG in merits. I'd go /WAR for COR, but why settle for a silver when I can go for the gold on RNG/WAR or /SAM?

I just prefer /DNC because I generally get annoyed at how cumbersome /WHM gets. If I don't need to help heal, I'll pick a melee sub in a heartbeat.

Even if you never use it for merits, you may wish to consider /DNC for city Dynamis at the very least. I've had plenty of fun with it there.

[Mezlo]

Wow, you're new to the game and you got your hand on a pair of Merc Kris... Good for you! I think that STR would help you not hit for 0, but I'm not a numbers guy.

[Grizzlebeard]

While you'll gain TP slightly faster with a merc kris I'd argue you'd be better served using a joytoy. Simply because most corsairs don't shoot when they hit 100+ TP anyway unless the mob is under 40% and they're confident they can kill it with a Slug Shot. Which means you'll be adding more damage over time hitting with a joytoy while you're waiting for the safest time to unload. Now, I'm sure some corsairs will shoot at 100TP everytime and they're the ones who piss off mages and prove detrimental to a smooth exp flow because the healer ends up spunking their entire MP pool after 2-3 birds trying to compensate for the corsair's e-peen issues.

[Flanteus]

Wow, you're new to the game and you got your hand on a pair of Merc Kris... Good for you! I think that STR would help you not hit for 0, but I'm not a numbers guy.

thank you , I didnt see myself getting joytoy since it required help from friends and trusted ppl, so I desided M.kris would do the job, and when i hit level 51 I stopped leveling for 2 months making money untill I got enough to buy the awesome dagger .

While you'll gain TP slightly faster with a merc kris I'd argue you'd be better served using a joytoy. Simply because most corsairs don't shoot when they hit 100+ TP anyway unless the mob is under 40% and they're confident they can kill it with a Slug Shot. Which means you'll be adding more damage over time hitting with a joytoy while you're waiting for the safest time to unload. Now, I'm sure some corsairs will shoot at 100TP everytime and they're the ones who piss off mages and prove detrimental to a smooth exp flow because the healer ends up spunking their entire MP pool after 2-3 birds trying to compensate for the corsair's e-peen issues.

thats exactly what I experienced, I care about my dot and wished M.kris would be at least little higher in dmg since most the time, my dot is between 0-9 dmg per swing sometime 11 but with lucky numbers on chaos roll, but meh i don't know any better .

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Can someone with experience of cor/dnc please explain to me what the job contributes over say cor/war. I get the whole extra healing thing but a rdm should be more than enough in a decent merit party and I see the added heals generating more hate while kneecapping your damage output and, ultimately, the party's exp gain.

There are several different reasons why /DNC is the superior merit SJ:

1) Curing efficiency. Drain Samba II is a pretty damned efficient healing ability; for 25 TP (which is roughly 5.5 seconds of TPing with M.Kris) you are essentially casting regen on the entire frontline. Additionally, the addition of a second, instant Erase is very relevant (particularly against Wivres).

2) Offensive scaling. The idea that one RDM is "enough" healing fails to account for the fact that "enough" is completely relative; there is a very wide range of defensive-to-offensive configurations for a party, ranging from 2H DDs subbing NIN to MNK/WARs and SAM/WARs fulltiming Berserk and Hasso/Counterstance. If your RDM has "too much MP" as is, you can practically always have your DDs step up their offense and turn down their defense.

3) Steps/Flourishes. COR/DNC can debuff the mob's defense and evasion, which helps all of the DDs (including yourself).

4) Evoker's Roll. As you may be aware, using Evoker's Roll means that the COR (and only the COR) gets a lower rate of exp/hr than everyone else in the party (because you have to rotate Corsair's Roll off of yourself to apply it). All other things being equal, if my party can get the same kill rate with me as COR/WAR giving Evoker's to the RDM and me as COR/DNC proving support healing/debuffing and keeping fulltime Corsair's, I'm going to take the latter.

COR/WAR is better for your personal damage and certainly better for screenshots*, but it's not the superior option for exp/hr.

*When COR/DNC can generate screenshots like this, I'm not sure that COR/WAR's advantage even means anything.

[Grizzlebeard]

Without picking your points apart line by line, a few things stand out.

The thing with drain samba II is the healing returned per hit is pretty low and once you factor in the fact that slow hitters like dragoons won't be getting much healing from it at all in addition to the fact it won't always be up on the mob because you'll be away landing a roll on the healer doesn't exactly mean much. Also, you have to consider the mob will probably be alive only 10-15 seconds at most so you're not getting that much back from it while it is alive. As for Erase, the number of times you should find yourself fighting a wivre is very low and one erase with a long cooldown isn't going to mean a whole lot of anything.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

4) Evoker's Roll. As you may be aware, using Evoker's Roll means that the COR (and only the COR) gets a lower rate of exp/hr than everyone else in the party (because you have to rotate Corsair's Roll off of yourself to apply it). All other things being equal, if my party can get the same kill rate with me as COR/WAR giving Evoker's to the RDM and me as COR/DNC proving support healing/debuffing and keeping fulltime Corsair's, I'm going to take the latter.

Are you suggesting here that you just don't bother with Evoker's and only keep two rolls up on the party so your exp/hour doesn't suffer for all of 50-60 seconds every 12 minutes? In that situation am I to understand all the melee are receiving hastes and cures when drain samba doesn't compensate for pecking flurries or average hits of 100+?

As to your screenshot, here's one of my own. With pretty average gear, one minuet and no angon I average 2.2-2.5k on /war and manage to sustain upwards of 30k/hour while keeping the healer refreshed. Notice their MP level and general state of the party health. Also, take a look at the damage per hit between joytoy and merc kris. I have no doubt with some enkidu's and skadi's I'd be breaking 3k regularly with all the optimum buffs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think what Dan meant was, in contrast to going /WHM or gimping overall personal output to sustain /WHM, that its a disadvantage /DNC does not have to suffer. A COR/WHM would be more dependant than COR/DNC to replenish MP for cures.

Sure, we can say "Well, the RDM is can help refresh you," but we know from experience we're not very high on thier priority lists, even when we actually should be for Haste with /WAR, /RNG or /DNC subs, so we're not going to be a priority for refresh either.

So the COR/WHM that thinks they're helping with cures is going to spend, spend, spend that MP, they're going to hold back the cycle of buffs or gimp the buff cycle down to a rotation of two/three rolls just so they can benefit.

/DNC elminates the need to do this, since Drain Samba is constantly returning HP to the party and its far easier to get TP back than MP when you have a Joyeuse or MK and the build to support it. If you go /WHM, you're going to have to load up on MP gear and you're forced with trading out accuracy, strength, ranged attack, ranged accuracy and haste gear to support it.

Yeah, you're still going to have Evoker's Roll up for the healer from time to time, that's just how things go, but change the subjob to /WHM and you become more dependent on Evokers. Again, BRD and RDM don't give a damn about your MP and don't have time to care, they're just not going to be there for you most of the time.

With /WAR many suddenly become obsessed with the accuracy they've lost because they've been so used to /RNG and they want to do meat instead of sushi to show off, but they suddenly veer to Hunter's Roll to make up for this, which often comes at the expense of the party's output. Oh its fun to point at your output, but you're invited to support the party, not yourself. Hunter's Roll might not be the best thing for everyone.

/DNC will give back one tier of Accuracy Bonus versus the two of /RNG and you have the ability to weaken mob defense and evasion with Steps, which is what you would use Hunter's and Chaos Roll for. With /DNC you can extend the advantage of those buffs with the steps or utilize other buffs in lieu of them.

And with a multi-hit weapon, you're going to make up a lot more lost TP for these /DNC functions. Instead of being your ultimate tool for damage output, the Joyeuse and MK become some of your best tools for support in merit.

Also, I guess just being a RNG as well, I just don't feel the need to show off as COR as much as I used to. I still get good damage out of what i do already, but I'm support-minded with many of my jobs. If I want to show off damage, though, I'd just seek on RNG.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

The thing with drain samba II is the healing returned per hit is pretty low and once you factor in the fact that slow hitters like dragoons won't be getting much healing from it at all in addition to the fact it won't always be up on the mob because you'll be away landing a roll on the healer doesn't exactly mean much.

Actually, that's your 1-hander experience deceiving you. Drain Samba 2 has 2 caps (it uses the lesser of the 2): either half damage dealt, or (Delay*8/100). What this means: the longer your delay, the larger your heals. For instance, my 504 delay Greataxe can heal for up to 40 hp/swing (and I almost never see it drop below 30). So yeah, Drain Samba II really is that good.

[Grizzlebeard]

@Omgwtfbbqkitten: I probably mistakenly thought he was referring to /war for the entirety of his post but I agree with your points on /dnc vs /whm in a merit setting entirely. In that event it would indeed seem a no-brainer chosing the latter over the former.

Ultimately, subjob choices are going to be situational with some people taking /rng for the accuracy to compensate for gear/merit levels or the ability to use atk food, which is in itself debatable. I haven't used atk food myself in ages because I found the lack of accuracy from sushi was just too brutal and that while, yes, I could be getting even bigger numbers, the reduction in overall damage due to melee and ranged misses just couldn't compensate.

@Lmnop: Thanks, I didn't realise that about Drain Samba II. I'll maybe have a play around with it in a skill-up party and turn my filters on for a while.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

The thing with drain samba II is the healing returned per hit is pretty low and once you factor in the fact that slow hitters like dragoons won't be getting much healing from it at all in addition to the fact it won't always be up on the mob because you'll be away landing a roll on the healer doesn't exactly mean much.

I see that Drain Samba and weapon delay has already been addressed. As for the time that I am away landing a roll on the healer, Samba duration is a little under 10 seconds, so I can quite easily keep it up while rolling for the healer if I so desire.

As for Erase, the number of times you should find yourself fighting a wivre is very low and one erase with a long cooldown isn't going to mean a whole lot of anything.

If you are in a party that is only fighting birds, it really doesn't matter what SJ you are using. I am talking about upper-tier merit parties, where killing wivres is a requirement. As for the cooldown of Waltz, after Demoralizing Roar, COR and the healer erase the two DDs with the most TP and the wivre dies shortly thereafter. The recast is irrelevant.

Are you suggesting here that you just don't bother with Evoker's and only keep two rolls up on the party so your exp/hour doesn't suffer for all of 50-60 seconds every 12 minutes? In that situation am I to understand all the melee are receiving hastes and cures when drain samba doesn't compensate for pecking flurries or average hits of 100+?

First of all, I find it somewhat puzzling that you are downplaying the amount of time spent rolling Evoker's a couple of paragraphs below your statement that Samba will be down for significant chunks of time while you are rolling Evoker's. Second, I would like to know how you are able to manage to keep your Evoker's Roll up for 12 minutes at a time; by my math, either you are renewing Evoker's Roll every 5-6.5 min, you are using it ad hoc, or you aren't using it at all. And if you have Corsair's down for 60 seconds every 6 minutes, that's a full 1/6th of merit time that you spend without Corsair's. Maybe that's insignificant to you, but it matters to me.

But to answer your question, yes, all the melee are receiving hastes (and cures, obviously) without me rolling Evoker's.

With pretty average gear, one minuet and no angon I average 2.2-2.5k on /war and manage to sustain upwards of 30k/hour while keeping the healer refreshed. Notice their MP level and general state of the party health. Also, take a look at the damage per hit between joytoy and merc kris.

Well, first of all, if you want to compare party health, I think my screenshot mathematically beats yours. As for MP level, you don't get to turn in extra unused MP at the end of the party for a bonus. I assure you that were my healer to run out of MP (note: this doesn't happen), I would give them Evoker's. And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn by looking at the damage difference between your Joyeuse and my M.Kris; the first thing that comes to mind is that if your D35 Joyeuse is averaging 84 damage on a standard hit and my D8 M.Kris is average 24 damage on a standard hit, I would be dealing more damage (per hit) than you if I simply equipped my Joyeuse instead.

This, of course, spectacularly misses the point of wielding an M.Kris; the point being that I am gaining far more TP than I would be if I were wielding a Joyeuse.

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

If you are in a party that is only fighting birds, it really doesn't matter what SJ you are using.

If you honestly believe that I don't know where to begin.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

I am talking about upper-tier merit parties, where killing wivres is a requirement.

Please explain what you mean by upper-tier. Other than an accidental pull the only time a sane party chooses to fight wivre is if they're low on bird pops.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

First of all, I find it somewhat puzzling that you are downplaying the amount of time spent rolling Evoker's a couple of paragraphs below your statement that Samba will be down for significant chunks of time while you are rolling Evoker's.

The two statements are in no way connected so I don't understand what you find so puzzling.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Second, I would like to know how you are able to manage to keep your Evoker's Roll up for 12 minutes at a time; by my math, either you are renewing Evoker's Roll every 5-6.5 min, you are using it ad hoc, or you aren't using it at all. And if you have Corsair's down for 60 seconds every 6 minutes, that's a full 1/6th of merit time that you spend without Corsair's. Maybe that's insignificant to you, but it matters to me.

It's not really difficult to understand. Cast Evoker's, wait 50 seconds, cast Chaos, another 50 seconds and Corsair's. Refresh Evoker's as it's about to drop, wait 50 seconds and repeat the cycle. At most, in a 12 minute cycle you won't have Corsair's on you for 50 seconds.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Well, first of all, if you want to compare party health, I think my screenshot mathematically beats yours.

How exactly do you figure that? They each have two people in with around 60% health and one with about 80%. The difference being my healer is sat on a healthy MP buffer to ensure they can be cured and to cover any emergencies like a resisted sleep or pecking flurry.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

As for MP level, you don't get to turn in extra unused MP at the end of the party for a bonus.

As I stated above, it's preferable for your healer to have a pool of MP they can draw on for unforseen events. The "bonus" is not ending up face down because they ran out of MP.

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn by looking at the damage difference between your Joyeuse and my M.Kris; the first thing that comes to mind is that if your D35 Joyeuse is averaging 84 damage on a standard hit and my D8 M.Kris is average 24 damage on a standard hit, I would be dealing more damage (per hit) than you if I simply equipped my Joyeuse instead.

Congratulations, that's the point. In an eleven second window with average gear I put out 745 non-ws damage. Therefore why would you gimp your damage and use a dagger to TP with knowing, unlike the other melee DD, you aren't going to fire at 100TP each time?

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

This, of course, spectacularly misses the point of wielding an M.Kris; the point being that I am gaining far more TP than I would be if I were wielding a Joyeuse.

This, of course, spectacularly misses the point that while you would be gaining TP faster with a merc kris on cor/war over a joyeuse wielding cor/war your damage over time will be significantly lower due to the lower damage of the kris. Unless I'm to believe, as above, that you would be firing at 100TP each time regardless of the mob's health and subsequent hate-grabbing / healing drain issues it confers. Now, as your previous posts have been about cor/dnc, you lose double attack and that TP you're gaining now is also used to cast Drain Samba II, Healing Waltz, Curing Waltz II, and Quick/Box Step, in addition to firing off Slug Shots.

Now, to be honest, I can't remember what either of us were trying to prove but in conclusion I'd acknowledge:
1) a similarly geared cor/war or cor/dnc will gain TP faster with a merc kris over the same job with a joyeuse;
2) unless the merc kris wielder is firing at 100TP every time their overall damage output will fall short of the joyeuse wielder;
3) a cor/war is always going to outperform a similarly geared cor/dnc;
4) cor/dnc brings its own special tools to a party and can pick up the slack when healers struggle to manage their MP efficiently.