[pounce321]

I recently re-geared COR75 to play DD/Buffer in merit PTs. We have a BRD do the pulling. I used to use /rng full time and either use Joyeuse or Fire Staff. The only problem I have with using a Joyeuse is losing the STR from the Fire Staff + Grip combo. I usually WS for the same DMG so I have been trying to fill in STR where I can afford to lose R.Acc. I have seen CORs melee for TP now. But if I gear up for the loss of R.Acc using /nin, even using Tailer's Kukri/Joyeuse, I also lose all the STR boosts I need as /rng for my WS and I feel I'll be going a step backwards in damage.

Being a COR subbing NIN in a merit PT not pulling, how much R.Acc is needed (without hunter's roll) before I can fill in with STR w/out missing Slug Shot? There haven't been any Martial Guns up for auction, so I just use Shark Gun until I can get a replacement.

If I sub RNG in a merit PT, is it still OK to shoot for TP? If I melee TP with a Joyeuse until my WS, I feel I am not using all my abilities to its fullest. Plus I would feel like a yo-yo going back and forth between melee/shooting. When I merit with a RNG, they shoot for TP so I thought it was ok for COR to shoot for TP too.

Which play style is best for a non-pulling merit PT atmosphere? Thanks for any advice.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by pounce321

If I sub RNG in a merit PT, is it still OK to shoot for TP?

Why the hell wouldn't it be?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If I sub RNG in a merit PT, is it still OK to shoot for TP? If I melee TP with a Joyeuse until my WS, I feel I am not using all my abilities to its fullest. Plus I would feel like a yo-yo going back and forth between melee/shooting. When I merit with a RNG, they shoot for TP so I thought it was ok for COR to shoot for TP too.

This makes no sense. Of course meleeing with Joyeuse for TP as COR/RNG is using COR to the fullest Its really the only way you can keep up on the DD end, relying on shooting for TP post 70 is only going to slow you down.

Also, a hint: "Other" CORs are usually idiots.

Additionally - you are not a ranger. CORs shouldn't worry about what RNGs do for TP in a melee burn. Waste of time. If that RNG had a Kraken Club or Ridill, his ass would be meleeing right there with the COR meleeing for TP. Rare thing to have those on a RNG, though, so they usually shoot for TP.

RNG has things like Velocity Shot and Snapshot merits to help push their DD further, they get more "ranged haste" from those traits and abilities than COR could ever hope to have. That's what keeps RNGs in the DD game now. COR gets LOL amounts of Snapshot gear, practically nothing that would keep them going as well as a Haste build for Joyeuse melee.

Not even one bit of snapshot would do a COR any good, you'd have to have that quadav barbut from Stronghold NM BCs and Jalzhan's ring in assaults to really feel a difference.

Shark Gun is a fine gun, don't sweat not having a martial for now. Do grab a Peacemaker for pulling when it comes up, though. It helps a long.

I think pushing +40 on ranged accuracy gear is adequate enough, though for melee you're going to want to drop things like Behemoth Rings, which will hinder you.

Raja's Ring, Pahluwhan pants, RSE feet and such should grab you some extra STR (though RSE may vary by race). There's a 70+ belt with +5 STR on it, the Warwolf Belt. If you don't have a Swift Belt yet, get that, its dirt cheap. Bound to be less that 5k on any server since its a common KS drop.

Dusk Gloves, Dusk Ledelsians, Swift Belt, Walhra Turban are all awesome for TPing with Joyeuse. Pahluwhan Legs and Body, Cobra Unit Subligar are also great TP build options. Not to mention FREE.

Also, going /NIN and dual wielding Joyeuse murders the advantage Joyeuse gives you. Don't increase your Joyeuse's delay by dual wielding. You're not a RDM feeding your Blau Dolch TP for Eviceration, you're a COR feeding your gun TP for Slug Shot, Detonator or Leaden Salute. TP with the Joyeuse, WS with the gun.

If you absolutely must go /NIN, still single-wield the Joyeuse, you should have more than enough accuracy gear and food to land Slugs reliably by merit level.

[Callisto]

I agree with BBQ on most points. Stick with Joyeuse melee, however Martial Gun really is getting cheap these days, and it's more than worth the investment. I would pick one up asap.

[pounce321]

Thanks for the advice. The answer you gave me was exactly what I was looking for.

[aegina]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

This makes no sense. Of course meleeing with Joyeuse for TP as COR/RNG is using COR to the fullest Its really the only way you can keep up on the DD end, relying on shooting for TP post 70 is only going to slow you down.

Also, a hint: "Other" CORs are usually idiots.

Additionally - you are not a ranger. CORs shouldn't worry about what RNGs do for TP in a melee burn. Waste of time. If that RNG had a Kraken Club or Ridill, his ass would be meleeing right there with the COR meleeing for TP. Rare thing to have those on a RNG, though, so they usually shoot for TP.

RNG has things like Velocity Shot and Snapshot merits to help push their DD further, they get more "ranged haste" from those traits and abilities than COR could ever hope to have. That's what keeps RNGs in the DD game now. COR gets LOL amounts of Snapshot gear, practically nothing that would keep them going as well as a Haste build for Joyeuse melee.

Not even one bit of snapshot would do a COR any good, you'd have to have that quadav barbut from Stronghold NM BCs and Jalzhan's ring in assaults to really feel a difference.

Shark Gun is a fine gun, don't sweat not having a martial for now. Do grab a Peacemaker for pulling when it comes up, though. It helps a long.

I think pushing +40 on ranged accuracy gear is adequate enough, though for melee you're going to want to drop things like Behemoth Rings, which will hinder you.

Raja's Ring, Pahluwhan pants, RSE feet and such should grab you some extra STR (though RSE may vary by race). There's a 70+ belt with +5 STR on it, the Warwolf Belt. If you don't have a Swift Belt yet, get that, its dirt cheap. Bound to be less that 5k on any server since its a common KS drop.

Dusk Gloves, Dusk Ledelsians, Swift Belt, Walhra Turban are all awesome for TPing with Joyeuse. Pahluwhan Legs and Body, Cobra Unit Subligar are also great TP build options. Not to mention FREE.

Also, going /NIN and dual wielding Joyeuse murders the advantage Joyeuse gives you. Don't increase your Joyeuse's delay by dual wielding. You're not a RDM feeding your Blau Dolch TP for Eviceration, you're a COR feeding your gun TP for Slug Shot, Detonator or Leaden Salute. TP with the Joyeuse, WS with the gun.

If you absolutely must go /NIN, still single-wield the Joyeuse, you should have more than enough accuracy gear and food to land Slugs reliably by merit level.

As a Ranger, I thought I'd toss a couple comments in. I'm "only" 65 atm, but I believe my experiences carry to higher levels as well. Also, atm I'm only talking about when using a gun on rng.

As a Ranger, I don't melee for TP because I have Velocity Shot. Velocity Shot slows down melee speed, making it faster TP gain to shoot for TP. I have a Mercurial Kris (Rng's joy toy. lol,) which I sometimes bring to PT when I'm using a gun. I stand at 3.1 distance and shoot for TP, allowing the occasional melee to give me an occasional "extra" bit of TP, but my focus is always on shooting.

Corsair, on the other hand, doesn't have Velocity shot, so your melee speed is just fine.

My point is, trying to compare ranger to corsair just because they both can use guns is kinda like comparing white mage to paladin just because they can both cast spells: they're completely different animals. I won't tell you how to play Cor because mine is level 26 atm, lol, I'm just saying to stop watching the rangers for advice, and play Corsair the way Corsair should be played.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, I know there's a ton of emphasis on subbing RNG from within various forum communities, but never think for a second that COR is a RNG.

Some people look at what RNGs do and think CORs are supposed to emulate that.
Other people look at what BRDs do and think CORs are supposed to emulate that.

Neither case is exactly true. We shoot guns and we certainly do buff, but we play by different rules in the long run compared to either of those jobs. Additionally, what they sub isn't always the best choice for our sub, which is probably the largest mistake anyone makes with COR, aside from most CORs being epic cheapasses.

[Malacite]

Barring the joyeuse though I still don't see why anyone would fault a COR for shooting for TP since that's doing the most damage per hit, and with SAM roll up you could potentially get a 5 shot build going (I've heard of some ppl managing 4-shot)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Four Shot build pretty much requires SAM sub, Store TP gear and SAM Roll. I've done it in Campaign, but it could still lose out in TP burn just because of the tremendous gun delay.

Also, if you're not getting TP as fast as you can on COR in a merit PT, you will not be contributing much damage at all. That's why we use the Joyeuse. Forget damage per shot and look at damage over time. Slug Shot, Detonator, Leaden Salute and Quick Draws will be your main source of DD, not sword swings or just shooting bullets.

If you shoot for TP, you will not keep up with the melee on WS. Guns, Martial gun especially, have tremendous delay times. Compound that with the fact Phantom Rolls will break up your damage over time by their varying results.

Shooting for TP worked when everything didn't die in 30 or 40 seconds. In TP burn, the only COR shooting for TP should be the COR without a Joyeuse or Mercurial Kris.

If you're really looking to boost damage numbers due to the loss of Fire/Vulcan Staff and Axe Grip, look into a WAR subjob and use sushi. And don't try to crutch on your Hunter's Roll if you still don't have the accuracy to pull /WAR off, buff what the party needs, not what you need.

[pounce321]

I know that COR and RNG are not the same. My main concern was the best way to gain TP for a merit situation. My reasoning behind shooting for TP wasn't that RNGs do it I can do it too, (I actually did forget that RNG has Velocity shot and snap shot) it was because I have more STR and deal more dmg per shot than poking at a mob with a sword or dagger. I do understand that its purpose is to gain TP to dish out Slugs, I just thought that dealing good dmg per shot is good too.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Also, if you're not getting TP as fast as you can on COR in a merit PT, you will not be contributing much damage at all. That's why we use the Joyeuse. Forget damage per shot and look at damage over time. Slug Shot, Detonator, Leaden Salute and Quick Draws will be your main source of DD, not sword swings or just shooting bullets.

Again, not everyone has a joyeuse though. I myself do have one so it's really a non-issue for me, I just take exception to the notion of people giving a COR a hard time over shooting for TP when it's their primary weapon.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Again, not everyone has a joyeuse though. I myself do have one so it's really a non-issue for me, I just take exception to the notion of people giving a COR a hard time over shooting for TP when it's their primary weapon.

OP has one, so this is kinda of a moot point.

Originally Posted by pounce321

know that COR and RNG are not the same. My main concern was the best way to gain TP for a merit situation. My reasoning behind shooting for TP wasn't that RNGs do it I can do it too, (I actually did forget that RNG has Velocity shot and snap shot) it was because I have more STR and deal more dmg per shot than poking at a mob with a sword or dagger. I do understand that its purpose is to gain TP to dish out Slugs, I just thought that dealing good dmg per shot is good too.

STR is going to be more of a factor for WS than on a per shot/swing basis. You could make up the STR with Sole Sushi and other gear, but I wouldn't get so hung up on maxing out WS damage when you're /RNG or especially /DNC, just getting those Slug Shots out regularly and quickly to contribute a substantial amount a damage is all you should worry yourself with.

You'll do less damage if you're just shooting because you'll have WARs and SAMs blowing through mobs in a heartbeat and certainly before you can get 100 TP by shooting, so any TP you gain here is precious.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Again, not everyone has a joyeuse though. I myself do have one so it's really a non-issue for me, I just take exception to the notion of people giving a COR a hard time over shooting for TP when it's their primary weapon.

What do you mean "primary"? Rangers shoot for TP for a very simple reason: they have an almost 30 point gap between their ranged and melee skill caps at 75, and several ranged attack enhancing JAs and traits. A corsair has Dagger 256, Marksmanship 250, Sword 240 before merits and gear - but if you have suppa, that's sword+5, so in that case the gap against sword is even smaller. And you get sharpshot, velocity shot, etc. through sj or not at all.

Acc traits, sushi etc. affect both. You can gear for either - or both, with swap macros. (Some pieces have melee and ranged stats on the same piece - ohat, for instance.) Ranged can't benefit from haste if you have haste gear or buffs.

Then you throw in the tp-generating ability of joyeuse and it's not even close. Damage per shot is nice, but you also need to look at the delay of those shots (especially with a long gun like martial or murderer). Outside of ws and quickdraw where you don't have to wait for the full delay, anyway. (If you're mainly shooting for ws and quickdraw, the case for long guns from a damage perspective is obvious, although it's a bit inconvenient for pulling. But then that affects your shots for TP too.)

Maybe I have a different perspective on this because at pre-slugshot levels I am mainly in the habit of subbing DNC, which obviously needs to melee to reach full usefulness. After slugshot and barrage I might have a different perspective on contributing more damage vs. the utility of /DNC, but then again, depending on the party setup, I might not. Rolling, pulling and dancing is a hell of a lot of work (and I say this as a RDM75), but if you're doing all that, you bring so much to the party it hardly even matters what your personal damage is. (It's still nice to do some when you can, of course.)

Of course this approach would be significantly less useful if the party has a full DNC, and/or a sufficient supply of healers that can't convert their excess MP into damage or something else useful (which is basically just WHM on most mobs).

[ShepardG]

Completely off topic.

I always found it funnie how Str is a major factor in determining Damage for ranged weapons...

I can see ,like, a galka RNG Flexing, and then firing his Crossbow...

Also the Galka has a tail.

[aegina]

Originally Posted by ShepardG

Completely off topic.

I always found it funnie how Str is a major factor in determining Damage for ranged weapons...

I can see ,like, a galka RNG Flexing, and then firing his Crossbow...

Also the Galka has a tail.

For guns, I would thing the reasoning is you need strength to hold the gun still when it fires (To ensure a more "direct" hit, as opposed to a more glancing blow.) For bows, pulling back the string further, of course. I have no guess what the devs were thinking with x-bows, other than "Well, it's what we did for bows and guns! *sucks on some weed*"

Oh, and I like smilies