/SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

[Callisto]

I meleed as /WHM or /RDM in several situations such as Dynamis and Limbus, as well as Sea triggers/Ix'aerns before switching to /DNC for those events when I can come COR.

And even when I'm not swinging a Joyeuse for TP in favor of using staves, I am generally shooting for TP and still using Slug Shot as often as possible, so I would definitely say there's a need to still keep some of my DD gear in place, especially the WS set, which really isn't lacking on MP that badly. Everything I've done as /mage I continued to build TP and WS frequently, and while it may not put up the #'s of a SAM or w/e, the 2-300 a pop for Slug better than doing no damage when you can be doing some damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A 200-300 Slug is nothing that couldn't be beaten by two consecutive Quick Draws.

[Callisto]

Actually it's beaten by one Quick Draw in most cases. Alternatively, I do both instead of just limiting myself to one form of damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Actually it's beaten by one Quick Draw in most cases.

I know, I was just being generous

If you can melee at times, then doing both WS and QDs is better than not doing anything. I've just never seen a situation as COR/WHM outside of farming that really warranted melee, but I still use QDs when I'm not meleeing. Not reason not to since the hate spike isn't that large and it doesn't TP mobs in the slightest.

In fact, I'm surprised more LSes aren't using that fact to thier advantage.

[Kylen]

Have we already forgotten what the discussion is here?

/WHM vs. /SCH. We're not even talking about melee, so by default, melee gear isn't up for discussion as being better than a RR item. If we're /mage, we're probably not meleeing much.

There you go, making that ridiculous presumption again. Maybe you don't melee much as /WHM (or /SCH), but as someone who spends the majority of their time in game doing things like Nyzul, Salvage, and Dynamis (all of which I'm usually /WHM for), I'd say I spend 90% of my time as /WHM in melee mode, with my admittedly small mp pool mainly being used for Stoneskin, Blink, quick status cures, and the occasional Curaga II. I have no accuracy issues whatsoever in any of those events using sushi and a full Haste TP build, and my Slug Shots typically range from 700-1000 in Nyzul and 500-800 in Dynamis. And yes, I spam Quick Draw on top of that for damage as well, unless I'm saving a charge for Light Shot which I often do in Nyzul.

So yes, I'm going to include melee, weaponskill, and Quick Draw gear when you ask me what's better to wear than a Reraise pin.

And, right, Novio - because every linkshell is going to put COR at the top of the list for one.

I know that, but I also know more than one COR who owns Novio Earring because they also have BLM at 75, and it never hurts to list all gear options.

Really, go back and read the whole OP, you might actually get a better idea of what it is I'm saying. Everything I've read in your replies shows me you're not really reading my posts at all.

What is COR/WHM going to do for uncapped Ouryu and Salvage bosses that SCH main, WHM main and anyone else /WHM can't do already do better without and without conflict? You can't tell me you're actually meleeing these things and staying fine on MP - if you are, then you're bullshitting.

You're clearly the one who's not reading my posts. I never said anything about meleeing Ouryu or Salvage Chariots; those are Quick Draw-only territory for COR. What conflict is there in tossing out Curaga II's to keep your BLM party alive during a Wing-spammy Ouryu, or being able to quickly Erase a tank when LBC uses Inertia Stream? It's not like COR will be doing anything else between rolls and Quick Draws in those fights.

Your "someone else should be handling that job" argument is weak at best, especially in a thread where you trumpet the merits of /SCH (gee, shouldn't a RDM always be handing Dispels, and a WHM be handling Regen II?). Anyways, to get back to the original topic of the merits of /SCH, what would /SCH offer in Ouryu or Chariot fights that is truly more useful than (divine seal) Curaga II and Erase? I've done those fights and I can tell you that mp regen certainly isn't so much of an issue that I'd give those 2 spells up for Sublimation and Light Arts/Pernury.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There you go, making that ridiculous presumption again. Maybe you don't melee much as /WHM (or /SCH), but as someone who spends the majority of their time in game doing things like Nyzul, Salvage, and Dynamis (all of which I'm usually /WHM for), I'd say I spend 90% of my time as /WHM in melee mode, with my admittedly small mp pool mainly being used for Stoneskin, Blink, quick status cures, and the occasional Curaga II. I have no accuracy issues whatsoever in any of those events using sushi and a full Haste TP build, and my Slug Shots typically range from 700-1000 in Nyzul and 500-800 in Dynamis. And yes, I spam Quick Draw on top of that for damage as well, unless I'm saving a charge for Light Shot which I often do in Nyzul.

So yes, I'm going to include melee, weaponskill, and Quick Draw gear when you ask me what's better to wear than a Reraise pin.

I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.

Your claims just don't add up, except for Dynamis and Salvage sans bosses. Anyone could hit a mob naked without sushi there - its skewed to be like that. That doesn't make /WHM more effective for those situations. Hell, Dancer's Roll does more than a fair share of the work for the first couple of floors in Salvage.

I know that, but I also know more than one COR who owns Novio Earring because they also have BLM at 75, and it never hurts to list all gear options.

It never hurts to stay realistic, either. I just saw the drop for Novio earring today, I'm far from being in line for that one and my SCH would probably get priority more than my COR would. But even that's counting my chickens too early.

You're clearly the one who's not reading my posts. I never said anything about meleeing Ouryu or Salvage Chariots; those are Quick Draw-only territory for COR. What conflict is there in tossing out Curaga II's to keep your BLM party alive during a Wing-spammy Ouryu, or being able to quickly Erase a tank when LBC uses Inertia Stream? It's not like COR will be doing anything else between rolls and Quick Draws in those fights.

Again, read my posts, the problem wouldn't be there if I was in BLM PTs. How many times do I have to say it? The problem for me is getting into all these mismatched PTs where I have to force Evoker's Roll out of rotation. There's a reason I didn't like /WHM in EXP PTs and that was the #1 reason.

Maybe its just the LS I'm with right now, but I get stuck with the RNGs a lot (probably because CORs are savvy to their needs these days, while BRDs remain utterly clueless). Pardon me if I'm just not a bit baffled when I, a gun user, am asked to come /WHM and I'm put in a Ranger PT. /DNC or /RNG would be better in this case.

Otherwise, I'd much prefer to be in the BLM PT where I can be the most effective. /WHM doesn't pose any issues there and in some cases, isn't even completely need there. Even in some BLM PT situations, I could go /RNG or /DNC instead.

So its really just about convering the downtime in these mismatched groups. Sure, it was a bit easier in PTs, but there's all these people running every which way and I have to rewrite all these macros for situations I've not really expected to be placed it. Writing a /mage set for a melee group is a tad tedious for my liking. My COR macros are very deep and very melee-oriented. Were it not for the fact that I have a good template on SCH to redraw my COR macros from right now, I'd couldn't be bothered to do it.

Maybe I can get the LS to change this in time. I'm still new there and don't want to rock the boat, but to me, /WHM doesn't make a lick of sense for the situations I've been asked to be in. If I'm gonna have to go /Mage and rotate Evoker's out, I'd like a means to get MP back more effectively. I've done many, many prolonged fights without taking a lick of damage, so not having SS doesn't really concern me.

A lot can happen in a minute and without any refresh support in these types of PTs, /WHM is tough to pull off. And you can't always count on Sanction/Sigil Refresh to be there in places like Sea. There's no refresh gear for COR and, no, I didn't get the ToA mage ring when I could get the next best thing to a Bellona's in Jalzhan's. I can't exactly go back and change my mind on it anyway.

In Salvage, I'm a pretty low priority in unlocking MP restrictions and not only that, i need the, Job ability, subjob and magic pathos lifted then I need the Max MP Down pathos lifted. If I sub DNC, I don't need magic or MP pathos lifted and those two go right to the people that need them, all I'd need are JA and SJ pathos lifted, along with weapon pathos. Gun wouldn't come til later and any LS that puts COR and BRD low on the ranged slot would be pretty foolish.

So, to me, banking on Curaga II is very risky bet, you may or may not be able to use it by the final floor boss and other member's needs must be considered along the way. Better to minimize your needs to get others unlocked with what they really need so you can move along quickly. Time is just as important as curative abilities. If you're looking to a COR for Curaga II in your hour of need, your Salvage LS is horribly undermanned.

For Ouryu, if we're going to talk about any benefit from /WHM, the top of the list would not be Curaga II, but Barstonra. That's the first edge I'd look at from /WHM over /SCH. If you have that and a BLU in PT, you could slip on Magus roll to cut out some serious damage. A BRD with Earth Carol wouldn't hurt, either.

As stated above, if you're looking for a COR - or even a BRD, for that matter - to drop a curaga II to save the day - something is wrong.

Your "someone else should be handling that job" argument is weak at best, especially in a thread where you trumpet the merits of /SCH (gee, shouldn't a RDM always be handing Dispels, and a WHM be handling Regen II?).

I've heard it come from you several times when rationalizing /BLM. What does /BLM offer over /SCH and /WHM, aside from MAB II?

[Callisto]

I know, I was just being generous

If you can melee at times, then doing both WS and QDs is better than not doing anything. I've just never seen a situation as COR/WHM outside of farming that really warranted melee, but I still use QDs when I'm not meleeing. Not reason not to since the hate spike isn't that large and it doesn't TP mobs in the slightest.

In fact, I'm surprised more LSes aren't using that fact to thier advantage.

In almost every fight where I'm not meleeing I go Vulcan's/Axe Grip and use Corsair Bullets to TP in between rolls/casts and swap to Steel for WS/QD, no matter what your spot is in the party there's not really a good reason to still build and use your TP in addition to your QDs. I would see slightly less out of it if I went w/ my Apollo's, but really the 18~ HP I'd be missing on a Cure III is worth sticking to full time Vulcan's.

And regarding the way your LS is using your COR, they're doing it wrong, and that's a whole other issue. Granted I get more leeway since I typically design the parties in my LS and can load myself w/ RNG/DRK/SAM, but still they need to learn to use COR in a better manner, either /mage with the mages or DD-capable with the DD.

I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.

I believe he meant for TPing, I doubt he WS' in full Haste gear. I really have no problems landing Slugs on most endgame things as /mage in my WS set, and I know for a fact you have much more RAcc on your set than I do on mine, I really doubt you miss Slug often at all with Sushi, even /mage.

[Kylen]

I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.

Your claims just don't add up, except for Dynamis and Salvage sans bosses. Anyone could hit a mob naked without sushi there - its skewed to be like that.

Dynamis, Nyzul, and Salvage sans bosses is the "90% of the time" I was referring to where I melee as /WHM and have perfectly good accuracy, so I guess we're in agreement on that part. As an example, I did Dynamis Beaucedine last night as /WHM, and missed a total of 4 out of 62 Slug Shots fired. That was with a full STR weaponskill build, too.

Hell, Dancer's Roll does more than a fair share of the work for the first couple of floors in Salvage.

Eh, maybe it's just me but I'd rather have 2 DD rolls like Chaos and Fighters on early Salvage floors to speed up the killing. As you mentioned, COR most likely won't get subjob unlocked on those early floors anyway, so subjob choice really isn't all that relevant until later on in Salvage. That's the reason I choose to go /WHM - not because it's the most effective sub on early floors (it's not), but because it's the most helpful on Chariot bosses.

Maybe its just the LS I'm with right now, but I get stuck with the RNGs a lot (probably because CORs are savvy to their needs these days, while BRDs remain utterly clueless). Pardon me if I'm just not a bit baffled when I, a gun user, am asked to come /WHM and I'm put in a Ranger PT. /DNC or /RNG would be better in this case.

Heh, I get that a lot too, as do most COR's I'm sure. My Dynamis LS leader got pissed the couple times I came /RNG and /WAR, and said that I needed to be either /NIN or /WHM so I'd have some form of damage mitigation. I do plan on trying /DNC in Dynamis once I finish getting it leveled.

In Salvage, I'm a pretty low priority in unlocking MP restrictions and not only that, i need the, Job ability, subjob and magic pathos lifted then I need the Max MP Down pathos lifted. If I sub DNC, I don't need magic or MP pathos lifted and those two go right to the people that need them, all I'd need are JA and SJ pathos lifted, along with weapon pathos. Gun wouldn't come til later and any LS that puts COR and BRD low on the ranged slot would be pretty foolish.

So, to me, banking on Curaga II is very risky bet, you may or may not be able to use it by the final floor boss and other member's needs must be considered along the way. Better to minimize your needs to get others unlocked with what they really need so you can move along quickly. Time is just as important as curative abilities. If you're looking to a COR for Curaga II in your hour of need, your Salvage LS is horribly undermanned.

Yeah, I know COR is pretty much at the bottom of the list for subjob and magic cells, and whether we get those unlocked will vary from zone to zone. In Bhaflau and Silver Seas it's no problem since cells are plentiful there, but I don't count on getting subjob/magic cells whenever we do Arrapago or Zhayolm. I never said anything about "counting on" a COR's Curaga II to survive a fight, I was just trying to make the point that if we do get subjobs and magic unlocked, an extra source of Cure III, Curaga II, Paralyna, and Erase can be extremely helpful on Chariot bosses.

For Ouryu, if we're going to talk about any benefit from /WHM, the top of the list would not be Curaga II, but Barstonra. That's the first edge I'd look at from /WHM over /SCH. If you have that and a BLU in PT, you could slip on Magus roll to cut out some serious damage. A BRD with Earth Carol wouldn't hurt, either.

Barstonra from /WHM sub is useless for Ouryu; you'll never resist its damage with such a small boost. The commonly accepted "first tier" of barspell resistance on Wyrms is ~120 resist, and to get consistent full elemental resists you need closer to 230 or more. This isn't possible to achieve with /WHM Barstonra, even when stacked with Earth Carol.

Our LS fights Ouryu manaburn style, with 2 BLM parties and 1 tank party. Typically the tank party will have a heavy earth resist build and a WHM with AF2 pants/Blessed Briault/Barspell merits to get them in the ~230 resist range, and that party will be taking very little damage. The outside parties, on the other hand, will be taking frequent damage from Wings and this is where Curaga II helps. Magus Roll is a waste of a roll slot, since our primary purpose in that fight is to keep Evoker's Roll and Warlock's roll on the BLM's, who need the extra magic accuracy to land their nukes consistently on Ouryu.

I've heard it come from you several times when rationalizing /BLM. What does /BLM offer over /SCH and /WHM, aside from MAB II?

The only thing that I've ever tried to rationalize /BLM for is kited Kirin fights where my risk of taking any damage aside from Astral Flow is negligible (this will vary from LS to LS though, we have exceptionally good kiters). /RDM or /BLU are great subs for kited Kirins, too, due to their MAB I trait and better innate survivability, I just don't have those leveled. I've never used and probably never would use /BLM for anything else as COR. My LS has switched to almost exclusively TP burning Kirin now anyway, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

[Callisto]

The only thing that I've ever tried to rationalize /BLM for is kited Kirin fights where my risk of taking any damage aside from Astral Flow is negligible (this will vary from LS to LS though, we have exceptionally good kiters). /RDM or /BLU are great subs for kited Kirins, too, due to their MAB I trait and better innate survivability, I just don't have those leveled. I've never used and probably never would use /BLM for anything else as COR. My LS has switched to almost exclusively TP burning Kirin now anyway, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

If I know for sure that it's all we're aiming to do for the night in Sea I've become partial to using BLM on JoFort/JoTemp, QD becomes such a large % of total damage in those fights that it's worth maxing it to me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Dynamis, Nyzul, and Salvage sans bosses is the "90% of the time" I was referring to where I melee as /WHM and have perfectly good accuracy, so I guess we're in agreement on that part. As an example, I did Dynamis Beaucedine last night as /WHM, and missed a total of 4 out of 62 Slug Shots fired. That was with a full STR weaponskill build, too.

I just find /DNC more useful for all said situations here, I hate taking any losses on performance. I want my subjob to give something that already compliments part of my main job and not only on the support end. We are a support class, but not so meek as a BRD or tied up in buffing like a RDM.

COR/DNC furthers my advantages on buffs and lets me turn TP into cures, I get Accuracy Bonus and fewer conflicts on gear. That's why I regard it a lot more highly - it doesn't really take away from the main at all, it compliments it. /BLU and /RDM give damage to QD while letting use also have protective buffs and cures for allies, along with stat boots from /BLU, again, these are things that give to the main job and have cures.

/WHM and /BRD literally do nothing but give away to others - that's the same problem as SMN/WHM to me. Subjob should never define the main, only compliment it.

Eh, maybe it's just me but I'd rather have 2 DD rolls like Chaos and Fighters on early Salvage floors to speed up the killing. As you mentioned, COR most likely won't get subjob unlocked on those early floors anyway, so subjob choice really isn't all that relevant until later on in Salvage. That's the reason I choose to go /WHM - not because it's the most effective sub on early floors (it's not), but because it's the most helpful on Chariot bosses.

Meh, once you've gotten some MNKs unlocked, it all goes down pretty fast. LS was low on MP jobs, so I was bottom rung for subjob and MP cells. Since RDM was partially unlocked, I just went with Evoker's/Dancer's to ease up things on healing. DNC Roll is pretty powerful stuff given its duration.

Heh, I get that a lot too, as do most COR's I'm sure. My Dynamis LS leader got pissed the couple times I came /RNG and /WAR, and said that I needed to be either /NIN or /WHM so I'd have some form of damage mitigation. I do plan on trying /DNC in Dynamis once I finish getting it leveled.

I did a run on it in Bastok and hope to try in Valkurm tomorrow. I was able to keep my PT going when I was /DNC for the time WHM was AFK... which was like an hour. Quads die there quickly though, so it wasn't really main healing the PT to me. Drain Samba helped out quite a bit for healing.

Barstonra from /WHM sub is useless for Ouryu; you'll never resist its damage with such a small boost. The commonly accepted "first tier" of barspell resistance on Wyrms is ~120 resist, and to get consistent full elemental resists you need closer to 230 or more. This isn't possible to achieve with /WHM Barstonra, even when stacked with Earth Carol.

Reduced damage is reduced damage. If someone is gonna tell me to go /WHM for Curaga II because "every bit helps" then Barstonra and Magus Roll are all the more helpful in keeping damage numbers low. I've never underplayed the benefit of Barspells, Carol, Shell or Magus Roll - it helps a lot. Doesn't matter if its an Avatar, BQ, Bahamut or wha

Most people would also consider Curaga II useless for a manaburned Ouryu as well. I don't like subjobs for "just in case something goes wrong." Not that you need to /RNG or /DNC a manaburned mob, still, I don't think Curaga II is the dealbreaker you're making it out to be.

Our LS fights Ouryu manaburn style, with 2 BLM parties and 1 tank party. Typically the tank party will have a heavy earth resist build and a WHM with AF2 pants/Blessed Briault/Barspell merits to get them in the ~230 resist range, and that party will be taking very little damage. The outside parties, on the other hand, will be taking frequent damage from Wings and this is where Curaga II helps. Magus Roll is a waste of a roll slot, since our primary purpose in that fight is to keep Evoker's Roll and Warlock's roll on the BLM's, who need the extra magic accuracy to land their nukes consistently on Ouryu.

It depends on the PT. If I was COR with BLMs, I'd do Evoker's/Wizard's or Warlock's Roll.

But then, you just told me you've not always been put in the BLM PTs either.

I'd want Magus on the tank PT as my 2nd Roll if magic damage was a concern, and then Evoker's for the PLDs. I've done tank PTs on various mobs with COR and we do have rolls to benefit them. They might not excel compared to other buffs, but that doesn't mean they're useless, either. Dancer's Roll, Gallant's, Evoker's and Magus all have benefits for them.

[Kylen]

I just find /DNC more useful for all said situations here, I hate taking any losses on performance.

Well, I guess we see "loss of performance" in different ways, then. While subbing /DNC gives 10 more accuracy, I'd think that it would have a noticeably lower total damage output than /WHM if you're constantly having to spend your TP on cures instead of weaponskills. Not having "gear conflicts" is irrelevant to me, since I use my full melee/WS gear sets most of the time anyway when I'm /WHM. /WHM isn't taking anything away from my main job in this case or even defining it; it simply complements it with a very useful spell list and a ~180 mp pool that is being refreshed most of the time with Evoker's Roll.

This isn't about /DNC, though, it's about /SCH vs. /WHM. I think /DNC can be a useful sub for COR in certain situations as I've stated in another thread here.

Reduced damage is reduced damage. If someone is gonna tell me to go /WHM for Curaga II because "every bit helps" then Barstonra and Magus Roll are all the more helpful in keeping damage numbers low. I've never underplayed the benefit of Barspells, Carol, Shell or Magus Roll - it helps a lot. Doesn't matter if its an Avatar, BQ, Bahamut or wha

Most people would also consider Curaga II useless for a manaburned Ouryu as well. I don't like subjobs for "just in case something goes wrong." Not that you need to /RNG or /DNC a manaburned mob, still, I don't think Curaga II is the dealbreaker you're making it out to be.

/sigh... the whole point I'm making is you don't get reduced damage on Ouryu from 1/2 strength barstonra. Try it sometime if you don't believe me. Curaga II is far more valuable in that fight when manaburning, and while BLM's should be casting it on themselves as well, having you cast it also saves them some mp which can be better used for nukes.

Curaga II isn't a "just in case something goes wrong" spell for manaburned Ouryu when we do it. I find myself casting it almost non-stop in that fight, since Ouryu does a ton of AOE TP moves in the air which are larger than the BLMs' casting range. Stoneskin is extremely helpful for mitigating AOE damage during the fight as well.

It depends on the PT. If I was COR with BLMs, I'd do Evoker's/Wizard's or Warlock's Roll.

But then, you just told me you've not always been put in the BLM PTs either.

I was put in the tank party once for an Ouryu fight, and used Magus/Evoker's Roll. We all unanimously decided afterward that COR would be much more useful in the BLM party instead for Warlock's/Evoker's, and I haven't been in the tank party for Ouryu since then.

This whole discussion is getting silly, though. We're in different LS's that fight things using different setups and strategies, and we can't expect any COR's experience to be exactly the same as ours. I've given a few personal examples where /WHM is unquestionably the best subjob for myself given the strategies and setups that my LS's use, but lots of other LS's and groups do things differently or focus on different activities/HNM's.

If mp efficiency is more important to you than Curaga/Erase/Stoneskin/Blink, sub /SCH. Personally, I'd have a hard time giving up those 4 spells seeing as they're often one of the main reasons I sub /WHM, but if you don't tend to use those spells very much then I can understand why you'd value /SCH more.

To each their own, I guess.