Pondering COR/DNC build

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, finally polished of DNC as a sub and have DNC nearly ready for a static PT that will start in the coming weeks, much like SCH, I've taken quite a shine to it and enjoy the role.

And seeing as it extremely compatable with my existing COR gear, I see no reason not to do a little advance work on high level DNC gear since /DNC appears to work rather well with COR. Granted, it does mean giving up most of the gunplay I enjoy on COR, but at 75, I feel /DNC may be more suitable for merits, Limbus, Dynamis and Assaults than /WHM would be. For Gods/HNMs, mage subs still retain some advantages, but I have most of the MP gear I want already and will probably round out MP merits soon.

For COR/DNC, I'm thinking mostly of rehashing my /RNG build with a few tweaks:

- I keep all hats I use already, favoring Tricorne for QDs and then use Optical Hat and Walhra Turban as the situation calls for it.
- Switch out Crimson Finger Gauntlets for Dush Gloves
- Switch out Gun Belt for Swift Belt.
- Switch out War Boots for Dusk boots.
- Dusk Trousers stay for now, quest Ashu Talif for Barbossa Zerehs.
- Reobtain PCC, probably sell my Qiqirn Collar for good, I liked PCC better but sold it for Dusk Trousers.
- Earrings stay the same, but maybe favor Hollow Earring over Fenrir's Earring for /DNC, maybe finally get off my ass and get to work on getting Brutal earring. Suppanomimi stays constant for melee.
- Keep Raja's, substitute Sniper's Ring for Jalzhan's Ring,
- Back piece, stick with Amemet +1
- Stick to Joyeuse for main hand, maybe pick up a Mercurial Kris for 50 and 60 capped events.

So basically, I'm looking at a bigger haste and melee accuracy built and shedding ranged accuracy. QD Build would still be a fixture no matter what. To be honest, most of what I have right now is more than adequate to do the task, but since most of this stuff will also be used by DNC when it catches up, I see no harm in working toward it now if it gets me more out of the subjob.

[Callisto]

A haste build could solve some of your issues facing /DNC for sure, because the largest is definitely quick TP building, since you aren't usually getting Haste from a mage. You could fairly easily hit 15% equip haste with Dusk hands/feet, W. Turban, and Swift, although those are also slots where you could be stacking a solid 24~ Acc...this shouldn't be a huge deal with Sushi and average Hunter's rolls, you only need about 407 Accuracy to cap out hit rate on Colibri by my calculations. With the 15% Haste and 95% hit rate it'll take you about 40 seconds to get full TP w/ a Joyeuse on average(when you aren't being pulled away for Evoker's and whatnot), given the life span of an average merit mob that's about every other fight.

This would definitely put you into a pure support role, but I'm guessing that's what you're prepared for already. The main question I suppose is if it's worth giving up your DD potential for the MP-less support, and that really comes down to party setup. As /WAR last night I was averaging 1500 Slugs on Colibri, about 30% of the mob's health, and hitting as high as 2200 with full buffs. That's a lot of DD potential to be giving up.

In terms of larger events, one of my COR comrades in my LS is huge on /DNC now and usually uses it to most events, I suppose in larger fights you could still TP easily in your normal gear with Corsair Bullets(I know you have a heavy RAcc build, at least last I checked) and still be a reliable support with it, however in a fight like that I still would be inclined to use at least /RDM for the boost to QD, if not /BLM. In something with lots of small fodder mobs however, like Limbus/Dynamis it works very well.

Edit: Complete nitpicky sidenote, I don't think the Brutal is really neccesary, iirc more Double Attack slows down Joyeuse, but I might be wrong on that. 4 Acc is alot out of an earring, I'd stick with the Hollow + Suppa.

[IfritnoItazura]

iirc more Double Attack slows down Joyeuse, but I might be wrong on that.

Total derail, but why would Double Attack slow down Joyeuse?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well the Brutal is more of an investment toward DNC and BLU than COR, just something extra to have in case it did have any use to COR, such as the limited situations I'd offhand Joytoy as /NIN and mainhand something else. If it boosts my Double Attack rate for Joyeuse, if only a little, great, but I wasn't expecting much from it when I use Joy anyway.

I'm more unsure if Joy is a solid option for DNC main down the road. Though I do have suppa and full sword merits, that D rating in sword fro DNC still hurts a bit.

As for parties, yeah /RNG or /WAR will be your best bets for damage. But knowing how people are and have been about this job - meaning, mindlessly using /WHM and /NIN in EXP - I'd much, much rather use and promote /DNC as a sub than /WHM or /NIN for EXP.

/NIN is steadily becoming COR's ghetto subjob, I'd even rate /WHM over it, but /WHM gets so much in the way of COR's melee potential. If you're gonna sit there and count your gil like a shrewd bastard, if you don't want to spend money on bullets or level /RNG, then /DNC is going to be way more ideal than any mage sub because /DNC pretty much cannibalizes your potential to WS in the first place, at least, that is if you don't have a multi-hit weapon, in which case Slug Shot or Detonator may still be an option for you.

[Callisto]

Total derail, but why would Double Attack slow down Joyeuse?

I'm not sure honestly, I keep seeing things about DA slowing down non-Virtue Stone multihit weapons, and I've never seen a proper explanation for it, and it's been bothering the shit out of me. I think it has something to do with DA not being able to proc on the same swing as a Joy proc, but even then it doesn't make sense to me. At this point I just /huh about it, it's moot to me as I'm probably getting Musical next and saving Brutal for last.

BBQ -- in regards to Joy for DNC, yeah D rating hurts a good amount, I'd think it would be an acceptable offhander if you didn't have a Merc Kris though.

Edit: Let's have a looksie...210 cap, 231 with your merits/Suppa. Mithra DNC/NIN should have pretty high DEX, 76~. Assuming a 'normal' setup with what's out now:

DNC Gear

Joyeuse
Optical Hat
Peacock Charm
Hollow Earring
Suppanomimi
Paluwhan Khazagand
Dusk Gloves
Rajas Ring
Sniper's/Woodsman Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Paluwhan Seraweels/Denali Kecks
Dusk Ledelsens

We'd be looking at +7/10 DEX, +48 Acc, and 5% Haste. This would leave you at about 340 base Acc with Acc Bonus II, 394 with HQ Sushi and no Madrigal/Hunter's...that's not bad actually.

[Sabaron]

Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.

As an aside, if there was a COR/DNC in my party, they'd get a Haste. Hell, if I was wearing Haste gear, I'd expect to have the spell too, and I'd ask for it. The amount of MP one Haste will save you when casting it on a Haste build COR/DNC is most likely greater than the cost of the periodic extra Haste cast.

[Callisto]

As an aside, if there was a COR/DNC in my party, they'd get a Haste. Hell, if I was wearing Haste gear, I'd expect to have the spell too, and I'd ask for it. The amount of MP one Haste will save you when casting it on a Haste build COR/DNC is most likely greater than the cost of the periodic extra Haste cast.

That part would seem obvious to me as well, but in practice I've seen that nearly all mages put COR last on the Haste list, which drives me batty, as dependant on subjob a COR could easily be the main DD in a party, or in this case close to the main healer.

Case in point, last night I was in a party, although it was a very, very good party, the RDM consistently had 9-10 MP/tick refresh and Hasted practically everyone in the party but me.
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Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.

Add: That's the explanation I was looking for, I think the issue is that I actually had it backwards. Joyeuse gimps DA I believe, not the other way around, as it procs so often that it rarely gives DA a chance to proc itself.
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Ok, my main issues with the /DNC set would be the TP build obviously, and what would be better for it, a Haste build like what you have up there, or an Accuracy build, mainly comparing the following:

Optical Hat
War Gloves
Potent Belt
Crimson Greaves

vs.

Walahra Turban
Dusk Gloves
Swift Belt
Dusk Ledelsens

Basically, 23 Acc and 3 DEX vs. 14% Haste. Going off of my gear/stats, in the Acc setup I'd have about 93%~ Hit Rate with Sushi, with the Haste setup I'd have 81%~. I'm still a bit new to figuring this stuff out, but I think I'm doing it correctly...

You need 17 hits to hit 100% TP with a Joyeuse(16 with Rajas). With 93% Acc you'd need to allow for 19 hits, 21 hits @ 81% Acc. Allowing for a 50% proc on the Joyeuse, that's 13 attack rounds vs. 14.

With 224 delay Joyeuse attack rounds occur roughly every 3.73 seconds, 3.20s with 14% Haste. So we're looking at 48.49s~ for full TP using the Acc setup, 44.8s~ using the Haste setup. This should be an even more pronounced difference if someone tosses you a Haste spell, 41.21s~ for the Acc setup vs. 36.96s~, only a second more, but more Haste(March) would even further compound it. In terms of pure TP building speed it would look like the Haste set wins out over the heavier Acc build. I'm not sure if it's enough of a difference to drop 1.6m~ on Dusk pieces and deal with the pain of actually getting a Swift Belt to drop instead of sticking to Acc gear that you already have/is easy to get, but if you already had them it would be the way to go(or, as in your case, you'd use them for something other than COR later on).

Disclaimers: I haven't had any coffee today, I'm new to figuring out TP/Delay calculations, and there needs to be some leeway given for the fact that your swings will get held up by PR/QD every so often, but I think I'm going about all that math correctly, and that the basic point of the 14% Haste winning over the 24 Acc seems correct.

[Kylen]

/DNC looks like it's going to be a very useful subjob for COR; mine's currently 15 but once I get it higher I'm pretty sure it'll become my default subjob for Nyzul Assault, Limbus, and Salvage, 3 places where I often go /WHM. It'll also make soloing in Campaign a lot easier.

A /DNC melee build would be the same as any optimal melee TP build; focus first on accuracy and once that's capped, Haste. Capping accuracy won't be hard at all with sushi, and you get a nice +10 accuracy job trait from subbing /DNC as well. Dusk Gloves, Dusk Feet, Swift Belt, W. Turban, and Skadi/Barbarossa Legs will all be extremely useful as COR/DNC, and you should not hesitate to ask for Haste from the RDM of WHM; as a healer/status remover your TP gain is more important than any other melee in the party besides whoever's tanking.

Quote:

Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.

Add: That's the explanation I was looking for, I think the issue is that I actually had it backwards. Joyeuse gimps DA I believe, not the other way around, as it procs so often that it rarely gives DA a chance to proc itself.

You got it right in that 2nd quote there. Double Attack doesn't gimp Joyuese at all, but Joyeuse cuts down DA's effectiveness by 50%. So basically, if you use a Brutal Earring with a Joyeuse, you're getting 2.5% double attack instead of 5%. However, 2.5% double attack is still better for TP gain than just about anything else you can equip in that slot, so I'd still recommend using Brutal if you have one.

And no one says you have to be 100% support as COR/DNC either. If you're not the only healer/status remover in the party, you should easily be able to build up enough extra TP to fire off some Slugs. The nice thing about /DNC as opposed to /WHM is you don't have to sacrifice any of your normal DD or TP gain gear for it to work well.

On HNM's we're still better off going /WHM or /RDM, but /DNC looks like it's going to be an extremely viable subjob for us in many other situations.

[Callisto]

And no one says you have to be 100% support as COR/DNC either. If you're not the only healer/status remover in the party, you should easily be able to build up enough extra TP to fire off some Slugs. The nice thing about /DNC as opposed to /WHM is you don't have to sacrifice any of your normal DD or TP gain gear for it to work well.

That's actually a fantastic point, lol. I think that alone just convinced me to work on my DNC sub starting tonight.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Way I was looking at it was that I get to enfeeble, DD, Cure, buff and Slug reliably all in one package and never have to use mage gear.

Would be nice to know if Wind Shot affects Desperate Flourish. Does anyone know if Desparate Flourish is a pure form of Gravity? All I know is that you can't stack DF with Gravity.

At any rate, I've had good fun fooling around with /DNC in campaign and other things so far. I think its going to work out to my intentions.

[Callisto]

So far as I know QD doesn't noticeably do anything to Gravity anyways, so it might be a moot point(I've definitely never noticed a nice boost to Silence/Gravity duration when a COR has used QD on it.) I think only variable potency debuffs(Blind/Slow/Paralyze/DoTs) see any good out of QD shots, I wouldn't think that DF gets any noticeable boost from it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, got to play around with the combo quite a bit more today.

First off, Box Step tosses COR an element that Acid Bolts give RNG - Defense Down, that's pretty nice itself, but then you can lower mob evasion with Quickstep, helping land WS if you have an opportunity to do so.

Had a blast trioing with a SAM and WAR, just roaming around killing whatever we came cross, even able to handle Ts pretty easily. Managing Healing in Trio works well enough, little more diffcult if you're the sole healer in a standard PT. With or with SAM present, its obscenely easy to get TP back quickly for whatever you need after you WS, you just have to be watchful of when you choose to WS.

Overall, its a bit busier than other forms of COR and, not to goad RDMs, but it feels a lot like RDM could have been, minus some enfeebles and plus the gun.

[LilithAngel]

Hmmm, I'll see about giving this a try during some Campaigns sometime. Never thought about using this combo.

Gha, I still need to get a Joytoy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Update brought two nice pieces for /DNC build and pretty nice for DNC main, too.

Cobra Unit Cap
DEF: 22 Accuracy +4
"Store" TP +2
Enmity -4
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Cobra Unit Mittens
DEF: 13 Accuracy +4
"Store" TP +3
Enmity -3
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Definately an option for -Enmity build and goes nice with Rajas Ring and the newly added Ecphoria Ring. Guess this could nudge me more strongly to the Dusk boots for this setup.

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Finally got some group experience with /DNC. It worked very well in small groups and I went to merit it with Selphiie's BRD against trolls. Our main heal was PUP/WHM and I almost could swear he could have come /WAR and just set his automation to Soulsoother, his MP was hardly needed. PUP insisted /DNC wasn't good for him, which I had a hard time believing.

I still got to jump in and WS and SC in places, though it wasn't as frequent, I probably used more cards than bullets the entire PT.

[Callisto]

I got lucky and got an Ecphoria Ring already, but I overlooked the CU Mittens, that's a great replacement of my War Gloves in my TP set, are those from Windy?

Edit: More importantly, are they R/E?