Pondering COR/DNC build

[Callisto]

The only time I honestly feel the need to /mage anymore is situations where Stoneskin is vital, and I know for sure that I won't be meleeing for TP. This is almost entirely boiled down to Proto-Ultima now, and when I do that I just go /RDM to boost my QDs.

I suppose something like Salvage can be a bit different as there's less people to shoulder the burden of status cures, but anything outside of that, as BBQ stated, I'd prefer to just go BRD if status cure support is needed that badly, so that I can have an easier time focusing on a pure support role. I can't think of any other situation where so many people would get hit with the same life-threatening status effect at the same time that I'd need CORs to help remove it because the WHMs and BRDs couldn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The only time I honestly feel the need to /mage anymore is situations where Stoneskin is vital, and I know for sure that I won't be meleeing for TP. This is almost entirely boiled down to Proto-Ultima now, and when I do that I just go /RDM to boost my QDs.

That's really the sort of thing it boils down to. If the mobs is hands-off, then I have no reason for /RNG or /DNC and would come /mage. I see no visible benefit to going COR/Mage to any other situation.

Since timed events are so touchy, I'm willing to give up my slug shot potential if that 5 to 13% Defense Down from Boxstep means more damage for the others and less MP spent on the backline. To me, as a BRD, RDM and COR, my first and foremost duties to any PT is boosting melee efficiency and reducing backline downtime. Whatever job/subjob combination suits that purpose best, I will use.

For BRD, that's BRD/WHM.
For COR, that's /DNC, /RNG, /RDM or /BLU.
For RDM, that's /WHM, /BLM, /SCH, /DRK and possibly a few others.

I suppose something like Salvage can be a bit different as there's less people to shoulder the burden of status cures.

I personally don't see why even salvage would require it unless your LS was seriously lacking in the mage department. I realize there's a lot of restrictions due to Pathos, but depending on which route you're going and those routes being well-known now, I don't see how you couldn't be prepared for it.

The way I see it is you have a job like COR/Mage, you've forced four cells to go to one job, when you could just use two to unlock all my abilities as COR/DNC or /RNG and be done with it. Hardly anyone is going to need the ranged slots save for RNG, COR and BRD anyway, so that's barely an issue.

[Kylen]

Callisto said it best - he'd rather go BRD or RDM main than be made to come to anything COR/WHM. I fully agree with that sentiment. /WHM offers COR nothing that it doesn't give those two jobs and they'd make better use of it.

Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.

COR would make better use of /DNC than RDM or BRD could. Hell, SAM makes awesome use of it, too.

Agree, but that has nothing to do with the COR/WHM vs. COR/DNC argument. At all.

Its not so much the job combo as it is what else we have available personally. I don't need a repeat of BRD. I have a 75 BRD. If you want me to play a BRD, I can be one. If you want me to play a COR, I damn well better not be asked to play a BRD/WHM.

It's not a repeat of BRD, that's what I've been trying to drive into your head this whole time. BRD's don't drop 800-1500 damage Slug Shots on things. COR can do that, even as /WHM.

Seriously, the "OMG COR/WHM is just a gimp BRD!" argument that you keep repeating just shows that you're either not thinking critically about this and you prefer to spout off talking points, or that you haven't read anything that I've written in this thread.

You seem to believe its our sacred duty to status cure and heal and prefer /WHM for that even though /DNC not only provides that benefit, but extends our support capability further than /WHM would.

No I don't believe that, stop projecting that onto me. If backup healing/curing isn't needed, I'll be the first to ditch both /WHM and /DNC and use a real DD subjob instead.

You're the one intent on DDing as /WHM it seems, while I'm the one wanting to use /DNC because it will extend the damage potential of the group that much further. In that context, /WHM almost seems selfish.

LOL. /WHM is a selfish subjob? Come on now, you're not even trying anymore.

We could argue all night whether giving an exp-level mob 5-7% defense down with Box Step results in a faster kill than reaching 100% TP when the mob is at 20% life and instantly finishing it off, but we both know that shit like that is situational.

On a side note, do you even do Salvage? What the heck are you going to do as COR/DNC in a Chariot boss fight? Run in to Box Step it every few seconds and eat a Discharge each time? Give the boss 19 TP with each shot that you land for 70 damage, giving you not quite enough TP to use a single Healing Waltz?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.

There are situations that call for hands-off, though. Wyrms, chariots, gods, Ultima/Omega. Pick one. Given these situations, what motive do I have to go COR/WHM over BRD/WHM unless its to feed BLMs Wizard's and Evoker's Roll?

It's not a repeat of BRD, that's what I've been trying to drive into your head this whole time. BRD's don't drop 800-1500 damage Slug Shots on things. COR can do that, even as /WHM.

I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiis biiiiiiig....

COR/WHM hardly ever does that kind of damage because it does not have the accuracy to support it. If you have BRD and COR in your corner, you're better off coming BRD if /WHM is what is needed.

Seriously, the "OMG COR/WHM is just a gimp BRD!" argument that you keep repeating just shows that you're either not thinking critically about this and you prefer to spout off talking points, or that you haven't read anything that I've written in this thread.

No, it just shows you're willing to conform to an approach that makes no sense because you either don't have the specialists available to you in your linkshell or you haven't levelled them for yourself. If the situation really needs cures and status cures so badly, I have RDM, SCH and BRD to turn to. I don't need COR for that.

I will come COR to situations that require a Corsair and BRD to situations that require a Bard. I seriously don't see why this is so hard to understand.

No I don't believe that, stop projecting that onto me. If backup healing/curing isn't needed, I'll be the first to ditch both /WHM and /DNC and use a real DD subjob instead.

/DNC is a DD sub. Are MNKs and SAMs suddenly not DDs when they use it? Its very viable to them for many situations. And again, Boxstep will push the damage curve in everyone's favor. Why are you, as a support class, just thinking about your own damage? If you can't land the steps, its time to work on the accuracy build.

On a side note, do you even do Salvage? What the heck are you going to do as COR/DNC in a Chariot boss fight? Run in to Box Step it every few seconds and eat a Discharge each time? Give the boss 19 TP with each shot that you land for 70 damage, giving you not quite enough TP to use a single Healing Waltz?

You were advocating the /WHM DD approach seconds ago, where's your DD now? No epeen left? I have done salvage and a larger concern to me is getting to the chariots faster moreso that who is in the fight at the end, because I've seen times where a few have to sit it out. To me, enabling faster kills and minimizing who needs what cell are two key elements in getting you to the chariots.

What you get unlocked before you get to the chariots is somewhat ruled by chance. I've watched LSes make a mess of cell distribution, even leaving SMNs with capped MP on the way to the top. I've subbed /WHM with no ability to use Curaga II by the time I got to the chariot, making it a complete waste. There should be a priority list for every job and combo thought out, a plan for who gets what as you go along.

And your whole strategy for /WHM in Salvage is just as potentially flawed. There's no garuntee you'll make it to the top with enough MP for a Curaga II or steady status cures. Meanwhile, the SCH subjob you decried elsewhere would let you scam enough MP for additional Cure IIIs via Penury, not to mention random deal and Wild Card could be usd to manipulate the recharges to full or sublimation would buy you back more MP in critical moments. You'd have all the requisite status cures for the situation. You won't have SS or RR, but if the whole strategy entails me being out of range, you really just need to worry about RR, which can be purchased.

Bottom line, your approach isn't perfect when the shit hits the fan, either.

And there are plenty of ways for me to get TP without TPing a mob as well. Shikikoyo, Wild Card, Icarus Wing, Opo/Sleep pots pre-fight while we're getting ready. With the right plan and setup, it can work. Not to mention with decent merits if curing is a major concern, you could use DNC Roll to maximize recovery, it all depends on what the situation calls for.

But AGAIN, if cures and status cures are the very major need, COR isn't the job to be bringing - WHM, BRD, SCH and RDM all do that far better. Pick one and go as that instead, a good LS should have enough BRDs and RDM to fill the gaps anyway.

I'd go SCH or RDM if Status Cures and healing are needed.
I'd go RNG if DD is needed.
I'd go BRD if pulls, healing, and DD support are needed.
I'd go COR if mage support was needed and it would be the only reason I'd go /WHM.

Really, its not hard to figure out. After all, you're the one that keeps saying "shit is situational." Why are you condeming me for thinking about the situation and accusing me of being narrow-minded? Seems that's more of a problem YOU have, why should I have to settle for less when I have a specialist for each of those situations?

I'm not pushing the square peg into the round hole when I don't need to.

[Kylen]

Quote:

Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.

There are situations that call for hands-off, though. Wyrms, chariots, gods, Ultima/Omega. Pick one. Given these situations, what motive do I have to go COR/WHM over BRD/WHM unless its to feed BLMs Wizard's and Evoker's Roll?

Well, in those "hands-off" situations you'll get much less use out of /DNC than /WHM, so I don't see your point. Also, not every COR out there has BRD leveled, too, and there are some situations (like in a BLM party) where COR buffs are preferable to a BRD's or at least complementary to it.

I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiis biiiiiiig....

COR/WHM hardly ever does that kind of damage because it does not have the accuracy to support it. If you have BRD and COR in your corner, you're better off coming BRD if /WHM is what is needed.

What?? You really think 10 less accuracy means I can't hit Slug as /WHM when I'm using sushi? I listed such a large damage range because it is completely dependent on what I'm fighting and what buffs I have on. Yes, I have hit Slugs for as high as 1500-1700 as COR/WHM (granted, on very weak or berserked mobs in Salvage), so I included that as an upper bound.

And again, what's with this ridiculous assumption that every COR out there has BRD leveled, too?

/DNC is a DD sub. Are MNKs and SAMs suddenly not DDs when they use it? Its very viable to them for many situations.

/DNC is not a DD sub. MNK's, SAM's, and NIN's use it in Campaign, sure. That doesn't make it a DD sub, that makes it a good soloing/support sub that's effective in Campaign and similar activities.

And again, Boxstep will push the damage curve in everyone's favor. Why are you, as a support class, just thinking about your own damage? If you can't land the steps, its time to work on the accuracy build.

Um, what if my own Slug Shot damage outdoes the extra damage that other DD's deal from 5% defense down on Box Step? It's not about being selfish, it's trying to kill the mob in the shortest/most efficient amount of time possible. What mobs in particular are you thinking of that would really benefit from Box Step? Perhaps some specific examples would make it easier to frame this discussion.

And good luck trying to land Box Step on most Sky Gods and other HNM's, even in full accuracy gear.

Really, its not hard to figure out. After all, you're the one that keeps saying "shit is situational." Why are you condeming me for thinking about the situation and accusing me of being narrow-minded? Seems that's more of a problem YOU have, why should I have to settle for less when I have a specialist for each of those situations?

Dude, I haven't condemned you once for playing /DNC. It's a solid subjob choice in a variety of different situations. I'm just trying to make you realize that /WHM still has its place in certain endgame events too, if played correctly.

Here is the crux of my argument:

-/WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.

-/DNC actually hinders your DD ability, since the TP spent on Steps, Sambas, and Waltzes in leiu of Slug Shot/Detonator outweighs any extra damage from the small +10 accuracy job trait. /DNC is also more limited in that it is only effective in situations where you are free to build TP.

I'm not attacking your playstyle choice, honestly. All I'm doing is defending mine.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here is the crux of my argument:

- WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.

-/DNC actually hinders your DD ability, since the TP spent on Steps, Sambas, and Waltzes in leiu of Slug Shot/Detonator outweighs any extra damage from the small +10 accuracy job trait. /DNC is also more limited in that it is only effective in situations where you are free to build TP.

I'm sorry, but which combination lowers mob evasion and raises party accuracy? Which combination lowers mob defense further while raising party attack? What combination can practically give melees a cure per attack round? Which combination would give you better accuracy?

That would be COR/DNC, not COR/WHM. While you're busy posting your Slug Shot numbers from COR/WHM on Boreal Hound or some shit, I'll concern myself with what the first duty of the job - support. Damage is luxury to this job and a beautiful one at that, but its still my secondary priority.

I still /RNG in most merit PTs because there is no reason to go as anything else. I'll /NIN or /WHM in manaburn because there is no reason to go as anything else. But if I merit with a PLD or frontline MP users, /DNC becomes top of my list. If I'm in Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar I will do whatever gets the kills faster and since almost all DDs eclipse what COR can do in that regard, so I will go /DNC for all save for Dynamis Lord or Omega/Ultima. At HNMs, gods or events that call for mage PTs, I will /WHM with no complaints, but if COR/WHM is not optimally used in those situations (meaning: BLM PT), I was better off coming as my RNG, SCH, RDM or BRD.

I'm not criticizing your preferred style of play, go /WHM all you want. I don't care. But don't lie about what your COR/WHM can do, which is exactly what you have been doing with these boreal hound numbers you've been kicking out.

If you're tripling your COR's MP in gear (meaning 450ish, assuming you had enough MP to raise to start with), you're not playing COR anymore, you're playing a BRD/WHM through and through, you're not DDing shit. You were better off being a BRD. Its not my problem you don't have it levelled, I'm just telling it like it is.

[Kylen]

I'm sorry, but which combination lowers mob evasion and raises party accuracy? Which combination lowers mob defense further while raising party attack? What combination can practically give melees a cure per attack round? Which combination would give you better accuracy?

I've gone over Box Step already, and no, I don't think that 5-7% defense down will result in faster kills against most mobs in the game than firing off a Slug Shot before it dies will. If you'd like to give specific examples of mobs where you think Box Step will result in faster kills than firing Slug Shot, I'd be happy to discuss them.

I agree that Box Step would be useful if I could land it on prolonged HNM fights where stacking multiple forms of Defense Down helps significantly to speed up kills, but most HNM's that I know of are either too evasive or have bad AOE's that I don't want to be in range of. Are there certain HNM's that you've been able to land Box Step consistently on that you didn't have to worry about AOE's from? Let me know what those are, and if so I'll consider subbing /DNC next time I fight them.

And a cure per attack round? Please, you get 9 TP on average per attack round with Joyeuse (average between 6 on single and 12 on double swings). To get enough TP for the equivalent of a measly Cure III you need 4 full attack rounds. That's 1/3 of a Slug Shot right there.

I don't know about you, but I've had quite a few situations on COR/DNC where I used either Box Step or Healing Waltz during a fight, found myself stuck at 86% TP when the mob was at 20% life, and regretted the fact that I was unable to finish it off quickly with a Slug Shot and had to carry all of that TP over to the next fight.

That would be COR/DNC, not COR/WHM. While you're busy posting your Slug Shot numbers from COR/WHM on Boreal Hound or some shit, I'll concern myself with what the first duty of the job - support. Damage is luxury to this job and a beautiful one at that, but its still my secondary priority

While you're concerning yourself with focusing entirely on support, I'll be concerning myself with doing whatever results in the fastest, most efficient kills. Vive la difference, I guess.

But don't lie about what your COR/WHM can do, which is exactly what you have been doing with these boreal hound numbers you've been kicking out.

I'm not lying, I have honestly hit Slugs that high. Heck, I hit a 2300+ Slug Shot once on a Hunting Wasp in Bhaflau, but I didn't include that in my range since that's obviously a huge variation from the standard. There's a reason I listed a large range of different Slug Shot values; for some reason, you chose to latch onto and focus entirely on the highest number in that range.

You wrote:

If you're tripling your COR's MP in gear (meaning 450ish, assuming you had enough MP to raise to start with), you're not playing COR anymore, you're playing a BRD/WHM through and through, you're not DDing shit. You were better off being a BRD. Its not my problem you don't have it levelled, I'm just telling it like it is.

in response to this:

-/WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.

As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets

where you can't act as a DD and build TP

can't act as a DD

Thanks for restating what I had already said.

And no, I'm not better off being a BRD in that situation if we already have a BRD in the party. You should know better than anyone how well a BRD's and COR's buffs can complement each other in the same party.

[Callisto]

I think you two should both just change servers to Ramuh and help me get my Swift Belt.

For the greater good of CORdom.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You can't even toss out a Boxstep (10 TP) at the start of a fight?

If you finish off a slug at the end of a fight, you have enough to Boxstep at the start of the next fight. Failing that, one or two rounds of a Joy would get you enough at the start and you'd still likely have 100 TP by the end of fight with the right mix of haste gear and buffs. I didn't really even need haste gear to pull that off, so why are you not getting there with it?

Anyway, you're not changing my mind and I'm clearly not changing yours. Go on /WHMing it. I can afford to be far more shrewd about what jobs I go as for what situations since I have them available to me. I'll not /WHM in Salvage unless I'm assured of (1) an MP cell and (2) a BLM PT. If I cannot get those things and the other subs are not a option, COR goes in the Mog House and comes back RNG or I'll log on to my BRD or SCH. I refuse to play a gimped backup healer with magic shots when I have superior options at my disposal.

[Kylen]

You can't even toss out a Boxstep (10 TP) at the start of a fight?

If you finish off a slug at the end of a fight, you have enough to Boxstep at the start of the next fight. Failing that, one or two rounds of a Joy would get you enough at the start and you'd still likely have 100 TP by the end of fight with the right mix of haste gear and buffs. I didn't really even need haste gear to pull that off, so why are you not getting there with it?

I don't know why I keep responding to these straw man arguments you keep throwing out. I never said I wouldn't toss out a Box Step at the start of a fight. I simply said that sometimes when I do, I don't have enough TP to Slug Shot at the end. Obviously whether or not this happens is completely dependent on many factors including mob difficulty and how many other DD's are on it. That's why I didn't say it happens every time. It happens often enough that I've noticed and been annoyed by it, though. And it's not just from Box Step; it could be from any dance moves I do during a fight like spending 20 TP on Healing Waltz to get rid of Paralyze or Blind. I refuse to believe that you almost never have cases where you would have had enough TP to Slug Shot but don't because you spent it dancing instead; that's simply not mathematically possible and it has nothing to do with what gear either of us are using.

Look, I'm not trying to bash /DNC as a subjob for COR. I just want to be realistic about the drawbacks to it instead of glossing them over. The tradeoff of having to use TP for curing, status removal, and small defense or evasion down debuffs vs. using it for weaponskills is a drawback to /DNC, and for me it's a fairly major one.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations to /WHM as well. The main limitation to /WHM is that you really need some form of Refresh for it to work, either from Evoker's Roll or another source like Ballads. Resting for mp as COR/mage really isn't a good option most of the time since it's likely to be interrupted by our roll or Quick Draw cycles. If I were ever put in a full melee party with no mages at all to put Evoker's Roll on, there's no way I would ever go as /WHM; in fact I would see that being an ideal time to pull out /DNC.

I'll not /WHM in Salvage unless I'm assured of (1) an MP cell and (2) a BLM PT.

You bring BLM parties to Salvage? Seriously, though, and I'm not being facetious about this, you should try coming as COR and having someone else come BRD to Salvage (or vice versa), and put both of you in the main party. Chaos plus SAM or Fighter's Rolls stacked with BRD songs on melees make a huge difference in kill speed on early floors, Evoker's stacked with Ballads is sex for mages, and Monk's Roll is a godsend on Chariot bosses and Restoral and Rail Cannon-happy gears.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I refuse to believe that you almost never have cases where you would have had enough TP to Slug Shot but don't because you spent it dancing instead; that's simply not mathematically possible and it has nothing to do with what gear either of us are using.

You're assuming your math is valid because you assume I do this the same way you do.

Here's how I break it down.

Sufficent on Healing?
Camp not full of status mobs?

Go /RNG

Melee not practical at all?
Placed in BLM PT?

Go /WHM or other /mage sub if enough status healers are there.

PLD tank and Aspriable mobs?
Camp Full of status mobs?
Inexperienced Healer?
Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul-type situation?

Go /DNC

Party OK on HP and Mages OK on MP?

Pass on Samba/Waltz, focus on Steps, buffs/QD and Slug Shots.

More curing needed/Mage getting to 2/3rds MP?

Tone down DD, use Sambas and Waltzes as needed. Slug if you can, but at this point that is less important.

Situation > The Math of TP gain/loss.

A COR/DNC is going to do a lot more good if you're doing trolls than a COR/WHM or /RNG would. A COR/RNG is your best bet for most EXP levels and bird camps. /WHM is more for hands-off situations where you'd QD and cure/status cure, missions and some other (but not all) high level events. A /WHM melee is really only good if the mob evasion is skewed down low enough, just my opinion.

If COR was your only job or only support job, this is how I'd break it down. I think that's very realistic and unbiased.

You want to COR/WHM in Salvage? That's fine, I have other options open to me.

Look, I'm not trying to bash /DNC as a subjob for COR. I just want to be realistic about the drawbacks to it instead of glossing them over. The tradeoff of having to use TP for curing, status removal, and small defense or evasion down debuffs vs. using it for weaponskills is a drawback to /DNC, and for me it's a fairly major one.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations to /WHM as well. The main limitation to /WHM is that you really need some form of Refresh for it to work, either from Evoker's Roll or another source like Ballads. Resting for mp as COR/mage really isn't a good option most of the time since it's likely to be interrupted by our roll or Quick Draw cycles. If I were ever put in a full melee party with no mages at all to put Evoker's Roll on, there's no way I would ever go as /WHM; in fact I would see that being an ideal time to pull out /DNC.

No one is glossing over anything, you're just exaggerating the TP loss. You're assuming I must always use my TP akin to Carrilei's anti-/WHM rants where he believes you must have MP gear in every slot to make /WHM work. A COR/WHM doesn't neccessarily mean I have to pack on as much MP as possible, nor does using /DNC always mean I'm using TP every fight to cure people.

Seriously, though, and I'm not being facetious about this, you should try coming as COR and having someone else come BRD to Salvage (or vice versa), and put both of you in the main party. Chaos plus SAM or Fighter's Rolls stacked with BRD songs on melees make a huge difference in kill speed on early floors, Evoker's stacked with Ballads is sex for mages, and Monk's Roll is a godsend on Chariot bosses and Restoral and Rail Cannon-happy gears.

I've done COR+BRD in Salavge, its nice, but it simply boils down to this:

I do not enjoy /WHM on COR, no matter how well it works and I do not like COR/WHM in Salvage especially because I get shafted on cells. I am forced to play second fiddle to not one, but two jobs that require absolutely no skill whatsoever to play and I'm made to be a gimped healer that may not even get close to halfway unlocked.

I do not deny /WHM works and don't claim it to have no benefits. I have it levelled as a sub but I just don't like it and will avoid using it if I can't play it in the handful of situations I do enjoy COR/WHM. I will go as something else because I can afford to be that shrewd about it.