Pondering COR/DNC build

[LilithAngel]

I've had a good amount of success with the Cobra Unit hat and gloves thus far, and I'll probably be replacing my Rutter Sabatons with the boots too, once I work up the rank/AN for it. I would like to replace my AJ with that Enkidu Harness, though; a Haubergeon for a lot of jobs that can't wear Hauby is really nice. The rest of the Enkidu set looks nice as well.

I mainly melee with my build, so Joyeuse is really a pleasure to work with here. The rest of the gear will probably have to take time, however, as I don't have a large (or even small) number of people to work with regularly. I do good just getting the AN gear by myself.

[Kylen]

I hope you're not meleeing in those rutter sabatons?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here's the TP/Haste Build I'm hoping to test out by tonight:

Head: Wahlra Turban (+5% Haste
Body: Pahluwhan (+10 Acc/R Acc)
Hands: Dusk Gloves (+3% Haste, +5 Attack)
Legs: Cobra Unit Subligar (+3 Store TP, +5 Accuracy, -4 Enmity)
Feet: War Boots (+5 Attack/R Attack, hate 'em but all I have for now)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain (+1 Store TP, +5 Accuracy, +3 STR)
Waist: Swift Belt (+4% Haste)
Ring 1: Rajas Ring (+5 Store TP, +5 STR/DEX)
Ring 2: Ecphoria ring (+1 Store TP, +4 Accuracy)
Earring 1: Suppanomimi (+5 Sword Skill)
Earring 2: Fenrir's Earring (+10 Attack Daytime/+10 Ranged Attack Nightime)

So basically, I'm just displacing Dusk Trousers for the evening. If sushi is enough to cover the loss of the Trousers, I'll probably put them up toward the Dusk feet. If not, I'll keep them around and just wait a bit longer for the feet I guess.

[LilithAngel]

I hope you're not meleeing in those rutter sabatons?

Yes, I consiously do indeed melee in Rutters, thank you very much. Yes, I do indeed own a pair of Dusk Boots.

2% either way doesn't mean jack to Joyeuse, however.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Meh, got too tired by the time I got my Cobra Unit Subligar to merit. Looks pretty nice overall, though. All in all, I think I'm just gonna keep the Dusk Trousers anyway. Even if I no longer need them for general things, they'll still be good to max out my accuracy for endgame.

So I'm just gonna hold out of Enkidu's Leggings, lotta Zeni NM LSes are starting up and other endgame shells are looking to integrate it into what they do. Thankfully, the concept most people have is "Your pop, your drops," too, which thankfully makes a lot of this gear free of the points bullshit.

I actually have had the opportunity to do a few ZNMs so far and its been pretty fun. Its wonderfully designed and hopefully SE reuses the concept for some future content.

[Kylen]

2% either way doesn't mean jack to Joyeuse, however.

It does if you're trying to stack Haste gear.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've been a big slacker on getting around to breaking my trail dagger, but I've been mucking around in Pashhow Marshlands (S) recently between campaign battles using /DNC to get solo points toward breaking the dagger. I just stick to the crabs near the outpost. I thought at first that I'd get wailed on and it would be a waste of time, but rolling Fighter's + Dancer's in conjunction with Drain Samba II was actually very doable and I found myself getting about 5 points per mob.

[Karinya]

OK, after several weeks of playing around with COR/DNC, here's my verdict on teh combo:

Before I get into the details: what level are you talking about here? I don't think I would try it before 30, it seems like the benefits would be too small. Even from 30-40 it seems a bit questionable (compared to your choice of Berserk or Sharpshot + Acc Bonus). After that you start getting steps and flourishes and expanding your options.

Drain Samba II adds another layer of melee damage output, which compliments Chaos Roll and Boxstep nicely.

No, it doesn't. It's been tested several times. The benefiter (I originally wrote user, but because of the way sambas work, that's not necessarily the same person) regains HP (unless they are full or did 0 final net damage or the target is undead); the target does NOT take additional damage. Ditto Blood Weapon.

Drain Samba is useful for reducing the amount of healing your frontliners need, especially with hate bouncing and/or AoE attacks. It won't let you kill anything faster, though.

There are no conflicts of interest in melee/mage gear when you use /DNC, you just use the melee gear.

What about melee gear vs. shoot gear? Since you intend to get most of your tp from melee, do you still carry separate racc/ratk gear to swap into when shooting? (I assume slug is still your best WS when you can spare the TP to WS, at the levels where you have it...)

Overall, COR/DNC feels like a combat oriented RDM. I don't say that to thumb my nose at melee RDMs, but in contrast to RDM or BRD using DNC, COR just uses it much more effectively in party play than those jobs could.

Well, that's hardly surprising. COR is a more physical-combat-oriented job than either of those.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Before I get into the details: what level are you talking about here? I don't think I would try it before 30, it seems like the benefits would be too small. Even from 30-40 it seems a bit questionable (compared to your choice of Berserk or Sharpshot + Acc Bonus). After that you start getting steps and flourishes and expanding your options.

Personally, I think 60+ or 70+ with Joyeuse are the most ideal. If you're fortunate enough to have the Mercurial Kris, you could make decent use of /DNC starting at 60 since you'd have /DNC's first Accuracy Bonus trait going for you. You'd be lacking status cures, but helping out on the healing end at any rate.

No, it doesn't. It's been tested several times. The benefiter (I originally wrote user, but because of the way sambas work, that's not necessarily the same person) regains HP (unless they are full or did 0 final net damage or the target is undead); the target does NOT take additional damage. Ditto Blood Weapon.

Real tests or Mr. Mageo kinds of "tests?" You're going to have to explain this or post the data, because the wiki does not provide a sufficent explaination to back this up.

What about melee gear vs. shoot gear? Since you intend to get most of your tp from melee, do you still carry separate racc/ratk gear to swap into when shooting? (I assume slug is still your best WS when you can spare the TP to WS, at the levels where you have it...)

Ranged Attack/Accuracy gear would still be part of the picture since for most situations Slug Shot is the better weaponskill and you need to stack lots of Ranged accuracy gear for it. The Detonator/Martial Gun combo is a bit more reliable for evasive mobs and situations where using meat is practical. At any rate, Ranged accuracy gear never falls out of the picture and any serious COR with a Joyeuse would be looking into a Haste/Accuracy build for /RNG as well as /DNC anyway.

The point is, /DNC eliminates the gear conflicts that /Mage forces on you. A lot of people that /WHM either go for a full-on accuracy build or full-on MP build, both of which are sheer folly. MP shouldn't go on the neck, ears or ring slots ever past level 40 because you have your ranged accuracy and Quick Draw Accuracy (AGI) to think about.

COR/WHMs would serve themselves a lot better by using melee gear in those slots and instead turning to RSE gear that give AGI, MP or both. For Taru COR/WHMs, MP gear might not even be needed, they just have the homefield advantage on MP, though looking at options for MP options the legs and waist wouldn't be a terrible idea. Mithra and Taru CORs also have the wide advantage on AGI, so they can focus on MP just a little more than the others.

But again, COR/DNC just wipes the need for most of that, it simplifies things greatly. Less junk to carry into your inventory.

Well, that's hardly surprising. COR is a more physical-combat-oriented job than either of those.

From a pure combat standpoint, RDM and COR are practically equals, COR just having the B marksmanship in it favor. COR actually has a slightly lower Sword skill and comprable dagger skill. COR stomps RDM on its parry rating.

RDM just happens to be more focused on casting, which hinders its ability to melee in an EXP setting. Its not that much less combat oriented, though Slug Shot kinda puts COR at a greater advantage DD-wise.

[MrMageo]

From a pure combat standpoint, RDM and COR are practically equals, COR just having the B marksmanship in it favor. COR actually has a slightly lower Sword skill and comprable dagger skill. COR stomps RDM on its parry rating.

RDM just happens to be more focused on casting, which hinders its ability to melee in an EXP setting. Its not that much less combat oriented, though Slug Shot kinda puts COR at a greater advantage DD-wise.

Ill have to agree with Kitten here (although ill need more drugs after I do I think). RDM and COR are almost virtual carbon copies of one another in terms of combat. As a RDM melee myself, I despise COR's for their instant cast party buffs. However in terms of DoT RDM still wins hands down (as it does over the majority of jobs in this game) but COR gets RDM with Spike Damage. When both are well geared they easily can slide into a low teir 1 DD slot, or at the least an Upper teir 2 DD slot. That is however if they are focusing on DD, and not being responisble for the background chores such as pulling and crowd control, or in the RDM's case keeping a party rolling with support spells.

Also I feel that COR and RDM both can make great use out of /DNC the ACC trait alone is great for both in terms of melee. Not to mention additional instant cast abilities. Id be currious to see a good COR/DNC however, the last one I partied with was kind of lack luster and if it wasn't for the support it offered he/she would be sitting in jeuno LFP.

As for Drain Samaba/ and Aspir Samba, neither of them acctually do "damage" to the mobs hp or mp pools. They are simply an additional effect, generated by weapon delay. I thought that much when I first delved into RDM/DNC but after "testing" it as BLU/DNC while spell hunting i noticed it dosent infact take energy from the mob, instead it just pulls it out of thin air. (I use bare hands so I hit for 1-2 damage on blu, and receive 5-7 hp per hit. The mobs HP bar does not move when this occurs).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

However in terms of DoT RDM still wins hands down.

I knew there would be bullshit. You seem to be forgetting COR has the a x5 damage WS from Slug Shot. I don't have to offhand Joyeuse to fuel the TP, either, as most RDMs would do fuel Eviceration.

Want to point to nukes? Well point your favorite mob, the Colibri and I'll laugh and keep pushing out two forms of piercing damage while you're getting resisted. Want to point to Bio or Dia? I'll enhance either and accept partial credit for boosting them with Quick Draws. Did I mention Quick Draws don't get mimicked?

Non-colibri scenario - your plate is still more full than mine and this will cut into your DoT much more signifigantly.

The only melee buff you have to your credit is Haste and you hardly have the time to benefit from it, while both BRD and COR have a lot more to offer in regards to melee buffs

And again, LOLTiers.

[Kylen]

After spending more time playing backup support as both COR/WHM and COR/DNC, I still think that /WHM is a better subjob for dealing damage. /DNC has the +10 acc. trait which is nice but isn't going to make any huge differences like allowing us to switch to meat, and /DNC is obviously the superior soloing and Campaign subjob, but losing 20-35 TP for every single status removal or Cure III-equivalent we do really cuts down noticeably on how frequently we can Slug Shot, unlike tossing out 9-15 mp for a quick Paralyna or Erase.

Most of my perspective comes from doing endgame events like Salvage, though; when I merit on COR I always go /RNG or /WAR. I've recently added Einherjar to the list of events that I find /WHM to be best for, too; it's kind of like Salvage in that I can go full-DD mode on the regular waves of mobs, and then stand back out of AOE range on the boss, hit my mp/elemental staves gear macro, and help out with curing, status removal, and Quick Draw.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't see how /WHM could even be considered a DD sub, given it only has Dia to push any sort of DD advantage and any number of other jobs could cast it from main or sub and then you could boost it with Light Shot and add more Defense down effects with Boxstep. The loss of any accuracy bonus makes /WHM an eyesore to me.

I'd sooner just pull out my SCH or RNG to go to Salvage than COR/WHM in it. If status cures and cures are your largest concern, why not just go as your WHM instead? The way I see it, that would seem to benefit people even more, since you have 75 WHM at your disposal last I checked. Why go to all the trouble to play a gimped WHM when you could just play your full one?

You give up a lot more damage potential for yourself and the group going /WHM over /DNC. You could tear through mobs faster if you have both Dia and Boxstep on the mob (and that's not mentioning Acid Bolts or Angon). /DNC gives fuller support at the small sacrifice of TP. If you're in a prolonged fight where big AoE isn't a concern, being able to push 13% defense down on top of boosting Attack via Chaos Roll and pushing the effects of Dia is very nice for the group.

To hell with my DD epeen after that is considered. It has made quite a large difference for me in highly time-sensitive events such as Limbus, Nyzul Isle or Assault.

Again, if healing/status cures is the concern, I'd just play a job better suited for that. I know all too well that every endgame LS has at least one or two dozen BRDs and RDMs in hiding anyway, its not like not being COR would be a huge loss.

[Kylen]

I don't see how /WHM could even be considered a DD sub, given it only has Dia to push any sort of DD advantage and any number of other jobs could cast it from main or sub and then you could boost it with Light Shot and add more Defense down effects with Boxstep. The loss of any accuracy bonus makes /WHM an eyesore to me.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying /WHM should be considered a DD sub, just that as a support subjob it seems to be a better DD sub than /DNC, at least in my own personal experience. /DNC isn't a DD sub, either; 10 accuracy alone does not a damage-dealing sub make.

You like to talk a lot about how the needs of /WHM (mp gear, according to you) and damage dealing compete against each other, to the detriment of both. I've pointed out the fallacy in this argument a number of times, including earlier in this thread. To put the shoe on the other foot, though, what about the more obvious competing goals of using your TP for curing, versus using your TP for damage? That's a pretty big tradeoff right there which seems to be glossed over by many of the most ardent /DNC supporters.

As for Box Step, I agree that it's a nice bonus from /DNC but I've personally had trouble landing it consistently on any mob that actually mattered (read: any NM or boss that takes more than 1min to kill). On any normal mob, you're rarely going to see anything better than the first 5% defense down, since it'll be 3/4 dead by the time you can put on a second Box Step.

You seem to be on this fanatic anti-/WHM crusade and I'm not sure why. Is it because of the cheap COR's who post on various forums trying to justify the fact that they're gimping their way to 75 as COR/WHM without ever pulling out their gun?

I'd sooner just pull out my SCH or RNG to go to Salvage than COR/WHM in it. If status cures and cures are your largest concern, why not just go as your WHM instead? The way I see it, that would seem to benefit people even more, since you have 75 WHM at your disposal last I checked. Why go to all the trouble to play a gimped WHM when you could just play your full one?

That's kind of a silly question. I'm not sure why you'd ask something like that besides to bait me, since I'm sure you know as well as I do what the differences between those 2 jobs are. Suffice to say, we have someone who comes WHM to every Salvage run we do already, and COR offers many things that a 2nd WHM main doesn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You seem to be on this fanatic anti-/WHM crusade and I'm not sure why. Is it because of the cheap COR's who post on various forums trying to justify the fact that they're gimping their way to 75 as COR/WHM without ever pulling out their gun?

Callisto said it best - he'd rather go BRD or RDM main than be made to come to anything COR/WHM. I fully agree with that sentiment. /WHM offers COR nothing that it doesn't give those two jobs and they'd make better use of it.

COR would make better use of /DNC than RDM or BRD could. Hell, SAM makes awesome use of it, too.

Its not so much the job combo as it is what else we have available personally. I don't need a repeat of BRD. I have a 75 BRD. If you want me to play a BRD, I can be one. If you want me to play a COR, I damn well better not be asked to play a BRD/WHM.

That's kind of a silly question. I'm not sure why you'd ask something like that besides to bait me, since I'm sure you know as well as I do what the differences between those 2 jobs are. Suffice to say, we have someone who comes WHM to every Salvage run we do already, and COR offers many things that a 2nd WHM main doesn't.

Its a serious question, not bait. You seem to believe its our sacred duty to status cure and heal and prefer /WHM for that even though /DNC not only provides that benefit, but extends our support capability further than /WHM would. You're the one intent on DDing as /WHM it seems, while I'm the one wanting to use /DNC because it will extend the damage potential of the group that much further. In that context, /WHM almost seems selfish.