[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Actually, it is useful now. While not common to have DRG in a manaburn PT,

Full stop.

If Drachen Roll only has a use in parties to which a DRG is never invited, how could that possibly help DRG invites, as you suggested?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Full stop.

If Drachen Roll only has a use in parties to which a DRG is never invited, how could that possibly help DRG invites, as you suggested?

Where did I say "DRG is a must-invite for manaburns" ever before August 2007?

I didn't.

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was. Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.

THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.

PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.

At the same time, COR needed to be given some even ground with BRD from the outset, so COR was given comparable buffs from the earliest levels. What SE didn't anticipate was for BRDs to start forsaking their role as a party buffer to become a crowd-controller and puller instead. So strong was this trend that who has the strongest buffs in the game now?

Not Bard.

But you know what? Drachen Roll having a use now has little to do with any of that. Its more the result of another update to another job, one that has a pet that, unlike SMN, can be used to focus on nuking. Hell, PUPs can even main heal now.

Now, I could invite a DRG to a PUP manaburn just like BSTs are invited to Avatarburns with COR. However, DRGs are by far more functional healers than BSTs and the most efficient MP user in the game, so its not ridiculous to invite a DRG/Mage as a healer under this context.

Now we can keep discussing things we said before certain updates or we can discuss the potentials of the here and now, in addition to what we could be getting. I see no point in digging up fossils, but if you want to, I'll keenly keep pointing your childish "meritpo stepchildren" comment.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Where did I say "DRG is a must-invite for manaburns" ever before August 2007?

I didn't.

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was.

If by "very old," you mean "earlier this week," then sure.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

They also had the hope that players would consider inviting certain jobs for the bonuses they provided instead of, you know, calling them "meritpo stepchildren" like some people I know. But we all know how that turned out.

OK, then.

Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.
THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.
PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.

In what sort of crazy, bizarro world do you live where WARs and MNKs need more of an invite boost than PLD?

But you know what? Drachen Roll having a use now has little to do with any of that. Its more the result of another update to another job, one that has a pet that, unlike SMN, can be used to focus on nuking. Hell, PUPs can even main heal now.

So just to recap: in order for Drachen Roll to be useful, we need to invite a PUP to a manaburn and drop one of the following rolls:

- Evoker's
- Wizard's
- Corsair's

...for a roll with no Job Bonus. OK, you win.

I see no point in digging up fossils, but if you want to, I'll keenly keep pointing your childish "meritpo stepchildren" comment.

Feel free. Seems to me that Squenix has done nothing but prove me right again and again (see: Light Shot sleep staging, improving COR's base roll potency, drastically improving the stepchildren). So I don't understand exactly how your comment is supposed to embarrass me. Squenix obviously agrees that they were stepchildren, or they wouldn't have taken the drastic measures that they did.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

If by "very old," you mean "earlier this week," then sure.

In what sort of crazy, bizarro world do you live where WARs and MNKs need more of an invite boost than PLD?

Y kan't Dan reed?

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was. Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.

THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.

PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.

MNK was not a golden-boy job pre-ToA. WAR was slightly on the rise after the RNG nerf, but Rampage PTs were not all the rage until when? Everyone and their grandma started leveling WAR right around that time, or did you just not notice this?

DRK was still shit ot of luck, THF still is, SMN and WHM fell further behind. If SE's intention was to use these buffs to counteract existing trends, they apparently didn't succeed, but you'd have to do a lot of work to prove that wasn't the intention behind those buffs now. Especially since you and I both worked with the original notion and had a hell of a time for it.

So SE buffed COR, so people would take notice of it and pretty much gave us the power BRDs were clearly neglecting.

So just to recap: in order for Drachen Roll to be useful, we need to invite a PUP to a manaburn and drop one of the following rolls:

- Evoker's
- Wizard's
- Corsair's

...for a roll with no Job Bonus. OK, you win.

I consider the diversification of party setups a win. I'm sorry it behooves you to drop the novelty buff for a PT to try something new. I do standard, I do Meleeburn, I do manaburn, I do avatar PTs, I'll take any kind of PT that's different. That's kinda why I like this job better than my BRD.

You probably would consider all of that a waste of time, but then, what exactly is an MMORPG?

BTW, in your "discrediting" you failed to consider one of those rolls already wasn't giving you a bonus, regardless of the placebo effect Sanction Refresh and /BRD may be giving you. But then, placebo is all the rage with CORs lately.

Feel free. Seems to me that Squenix has done nothing but prove me right again and again (see: Light Shot sleep staging, improving COR's base roll potency, drastically improving the stepchildren). So I don't understand exactly how your comment is supposed to embarrass me. Squenix obviously agrees that they were stepchildren, or they wouldn't have taken the drastic measures that they did.

Er, I've been right there with you on the Sleep Staging thing. I was sleep staging as BRD before COR existed. That's nothing special, any COR with a lick of sense saw what Peacemaker and Light Shot meant when the adjustment to Light Shot came. I didn't exactly like that notion, but I never denied it, either.

My issue with your "Stepchildren" comment is that its insulting to other players in other jobs. If you want to sound like a princess, that's a great way to do it. It people like you who honestly make this game harder than it has to be and what forces SE to make drastic updates like the 2H one.

Oh and look at where SE "agreeing" with you got your RNG and THF. Karma's a bitch, but hey, at least you still have COR.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

MNK was not a golden-boy job pre-ToA. WAR was slightly on the rise after the RNG nerf, but Rampage PTs were not all the rage until when? Everyone and their grandma started leveling WAR right around that time, or did you just not notice this?

What game have you been playing for the last two years? Apparently not FFXI.

RNG nerf was in July of 2006. That was a full EIGHT months before ToAU came out. I would love to hear what jobs were desired (during that time frame) in the version of the game that you had.

DRK was still shit ot of luck, THF still is, SMN and WHM fell further behind. If SE's intention was to use these buffs to counteract existing trends, they apparently didn't succeed, but you'd have to do a lot of work to prove that wasn't the intention behind those buffs now.

The fact that the least desired job (DRG) also had one of the least practical buffs speaks volumes to that

I consider the diversification of party setups a win. I'm sorry it behooves you to drop the novelty buff for a PT to try something new.

I'm still trying to figure out which one of +MAB, +Refresh, and +EXP you are labeling as a "novelty." It would be rather absurd to call Wizard's a novelty as you're rolling Drachen and Corsair's affects your exp/hr more than any other roll in manaburn. So I guess you're arguing that refresh is a novelty buff? Who knows.

BTW, in your "discrediting" you failed to consider one of those rolls already wasn't giving you a bonus, regardless of the placebo effect Sanction Refresh and /BRD may be giving you.

Um, are you seriously trying to compare Drachen to Evoker's? Seeing as how Evoker's is better than Ballad II even without a job bonus, missing the JB doesn't seem particularly relevant.

Er, I've been right there with you on the Sleep Staging thing. I was sleep staging as BRD before COR existed.

Congratulations. I was merit pulling on COR before Light Shot could sleep, so I was actually speaking from the standpoint of someone that's actually using the job in question, not a completely different job. But thanks.

My issue with your "Stepchildren" comment is that its insulting to other players in other jobs. If you want to sound like a princess, that's a great way to do it.

What, exactly, do you think the term "stepchildren" conveys? If I had meant the other "gimp" jobs, then that's what I would have said. "Stepchildren" implies that they are not desired, which you have already stated in this thread. So I guess you sound like a princess, too?

Oh and look at where SE "agreeing" with you got your RNG and THF. Karma's a bitch, but hey, at least you still have COR.

What an outstandingly irrelevant observation. While there are many responses I could offer, the simplest one is that since I already have a 75COR, I'm not particularly concerned about the meripo performance of either RNG or THF. So I guess you'll have to color me indifferent on that subject.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Please try reading posts before you hit that "Quote" button. Its seriously not that hard.Now, allow me to spell it all out for you. Try to actually read this before you hit reply with a loaded rebuttal.

Corsair's Roll is the novelty to which I refer. And that's exactly what it is considering two other similar buffs already exist. If you want to roll it to satisfy your bottom line, more power to you, but I'll point to your old adage of "everything is situational" as a reminder that it should not always be your first pick.

I never said Drachen Roll was better than Evoker's. How you jump to that conclusion, i'll never know. What I said was, DRG Roll does have a viable situation now as a direct result of the last PUP update. And what I implied was that one should be willing to ditch novelty in favor of complimenting jobs and their abilities.

Let's seriously look at the possible setup I'm discussing here.

DRG/Mage, COR, BLM, BLM, PUP, PUP.

Possible Rolls are:

Wizard's
Drachen
Evoker's

These would be the most beneficial rolls to the whole of the PT. It might take some doing to separate the BLMs to avoid Drachen, but could this PT work and do effective EXP per hour given all the skills they are capable of in manaburn?

Absolutely. I think its a refreshing setup. Most manaburn PTs aren't really that stressful and the killspeed here would be adequate. The problem, well, the problem for you, is that you can't justify Corsair's Roll here.

Boo hoo.

And sorry, you'e not getting away with the semantic debate on bonuses. You were the one crying about how the original versions of the buffs and their bonuses "tethered us to the meritpo stepchildren." (THF, SAM, DRK, RNG are the "stepchildren" for those just joining us, have fun with that).

Your complaint was that was shouldn't have to be reliant on bonuses and now we really aren't tied to them so strictly. My complaint was that naked BRDs shouldn't be doing better buffs.

We both got what we wanted.

Though the bonuses did get a buff along with the rolls themselves, I still get a big boost on Chaos Roll without a DRK, so why are you still clinging to the bonuses if you hated them so much? You got what you wanted.

Either Bonuses aren't a big deal, or they are. Pick one. As of the update, I'd say they aren't as big a deal as the once were, they're just nice to have when we have the compatible jobs, but I don't need a DRK or RNG to justify their respective rolls now. I just need to apply them as needed.

If you want to cling to Corsair's Roll like a greedy little child and ignore the opportunity for new styles of PTs and new opportunities for data (which you seem to enjoy), that's fine. I fully accept that there are people who are interested in little else in satisfying their bottom line on merits. It still play to explore and there's a bit left to explore.

Its just rather disappointing to see someone who usually advocates potentials is now ignoring them now that his wants were satisfied. So much of the situational, eh?

Anyway, I'm done with this little discussion.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Corsair's Roll is the novelty to which I refer. And that's exactly what it is considering two other similar buffs already exist. If you want to roll it to satisfy your bottom line, more power to you, but I'll point to your old adage of "everything is situational" as a reminder that it should not always be your first pick.

I fail to understand why you still consider Corsair's a "novelty" roll, unless you have some other goal in meripo that's unrelated to gaining exp. But in any case, I clearly listed three rolls: Corsair's, Wizard's, Evoker's.

Let's seriously look at the possible setup I'm discussing here.
DRG/Mage, COR, BLM, BLM, PUP, PUP.
Possible Rolls are:
Wizard's
Drachen
Evoker's
These would be the most beneficial rolls to the whole of the PT.

And what is the DRG doing here, besides trying to "prove" that everything has a purpose? A RDM, SMN, or BLU would be superior in practically EVERY way.

And sorry, you'e not getting away with the semantic debate on bonuses. You were the one crying about how the original versions of the buffs and their bonuses "tethered us to the meritpo stepchildren."

Since you apparently missed this the first time: the reason we were tethered to the stepchildren was because without the job bonus, most of our buffs were vastly inferior to that of a BRD's equivalent. Evoker's has never fallen into this category, which is why you've never heard me complain that we're tethered to SMN.

Its just rather disappointing to see someone who usually advocates potentials is now ignoring them now that his wants were satisfied. So much of the situational, eh?

The difference between you and I is that I look for potential to create new, more effective strategies, while you consider net effectiveness an unimportant novelty, to be discarded in favor of doing new things for the sake of doing them (see: your long-standing hatred towards Corsair's, which does absolutely nothing but affect exp/hr efficiency).