[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

so "balance" is a rather weak defense for lazy game design. But if the intention is to bring us COR closer to those jobs in terms of PT support, SE needs to finish the job because they have still left it unfinished in that intention.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

To make us a better sole-support role, separating Light and Dark Shot from the other QDs and giving L&D Shots thier own timers would benefit COR in a support role.

It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.

I'm not convinced it's a "lazy game design"; it could very well be that within the dev team they cannot agree on how good COR should be at support job role, and with this last update the "be more" side scored a compromise victory.

It may be that it's not so much "unfinished" as "undecided".

And, comparing Quickdraw with Bloodpact is not exactly fair. Between QD's, COR's can help the party with Phantom Roll and range attack. Heck, every COR I had so far also pulls for the party, so COR's are quite useful even before QD, same timer for light/dark or otherwise. (Can you tell I liked COR's in party?)

What's a SMN in traditional party supposed to do between BP's other than using spells from /WHM? Melee? Certainly not. Carby pull, maybe, at the expense of not being able to heal for MP. The point is that they don't have much "Summoner" things to do other than Bloodpacts.

What you see as "repeating mistake" I see as a reasonable compromise which strengthened COR considerably. If dispel is important, now COR can fill in when RDM and BRD cannot be had--maybe with a BLU on the backup. That adds a nice alternative, I think, to exp party options.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Conversely, as RDM, BRD and COR: Just because you're playing with another support class doesn't mean that PT is instantly gravy EXP. I've had just as many of those that sucked as I did awesome ones.

If this is directed at me, I don't believe I've ever said dual support equals "gravy EXP". ^_^; (I've been fortunate, though; dual support has always been fun for me.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If COR's undecided, then many of the jobs still are. The fact DRK got such an insignifigant tweak in the update when MNK or BST could have gotten an update kinda says to me some of these adjustments are just plain random.

PUP gets high level WS for the automation and new parts, but no real upgrade to the PUPs themselves. COR gets a lowered recast, but cards still aren't quiverable. BLU... gets new spells. Yeah thats a shocker.

DRG it seems they adjust everything around the wyvern, but never give a new job ability that enhances a DRG's performace. What lies between 50 and 75 is still a wasteland, something should be there after 50 and before merit abilities. SAM update was nice for the subjob aspect, but DRG still needs some main job adjustments.

Its the same problem as PUP - too much focus on the pet, not enough on the job itself. BST? Same thing.

WAR - haven't seen a WAR/SAM since SAM update, they still go /NIN. Seigan is really, really good, I don't know why they don't even give it damn chance. But SE can't fix community stubborness without doing something a bit more drastic.

Anyway, if these are all adjustments, there is a lot left to be adjusted. I seriously hope it doesn't end with the next batch of so-called adjustments, because some jobs now feel even more incomplete than they did before. SAM, PLD and SMN seem to be perfectly balanced out now, but that's about it. RDM, NIN and BRD - they don't really need anything.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

We've established "misses" were resists, or so we've thought.

After a couple roaming PTs in Mamook and TP burns in Mamool Ja Staging point, I'm no longer convinced these are resists. These are misses just like melee misses.

Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Lurkers are convincing me this is the case. Both mobs have very high evasion and we generally try to avoid pulling them in TP burn because they're harder to kill due to that evasion. Just about each and every Dark Shot or Light Shot fired at these has been a miss with the same AGI build as before.

Yet, in Besieged, mob evasion is lowered so people can hit them. Some of the same mob types roam here, but I don't "miss" them, in fact, I hardly do.

AGI is our modifier, that we already knew for QD. So if a mob has higher agility than us, the more likely we will miss, its just not a resist. In the initial scenario, I was level 68 and we were on imps in Mire. I felt like we were there too early and I'm pretty sure my feeling was correct. When I caught up but two levels, my Dark Shots landed more consistantly, but the RDMs I PTed with at a similar level still saw more resists on Dispel.

Gun and Bullet DMG, along with Magic Attack and Staves do affect our max potential damage for QD. But its still technically magic, so it can see resists, but they never miss.

So now I'm feeling Dark and Light Shot are only magical in their two-fold functions, but counted as a melee shot otherwise.

If imps were so strong with Dark, then Dark Shot would indeed be resisted more, but I land more Dispels on them than RDMs seem to now, so I'm thinking Dark Shot is just Dark by name and has nothing to do with the element itself.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

We've established "misses" were resists, or so we've thought.
After a couple roaming PTs in Mamook and TP burns in Mamool Ja Staging point, I'm no longer convinced these are resists. These are misses just like melee misses.

Fire Light Shot at a Light Elemental. Either Light Elementals are the most evasive mob in the game, or Light Shot is being resisted.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Fire Light Shot at a Light Elemental. Either Light Elementals are the most evasive mob in the game, or Light Shot is being resisted.

Light Elementals are too chance and lengthy a spawn for worthwhile testing, so I instead opted for Dark Elementals, which are practically always up in Castle Zvahl Baileys. Each Dark shot did miss, so yeah, element is definately a factor

... but then I turned around and Dispelled a demon. Like Imps, they're strong with Dark, too, but not immune to Dark-based dispel.

Elementals are all strongly attuned to a particular element. They're rigged resist their own element by default, regardless of level difference. So its not exactly the most perfect test on earth, Dan. I can land Ice Shot on an Ice Elemental using Peacemaker on Firesday, I'm still only going to do 9 damange. That's practically a full resist, a 100 percent resist is 0, but it still lands every time. So, so much for that idea.

And this doesn't explain why Dark and Light Shot land rather reliably now on a Mamool Ja Blusterer, Philosopher, Pikeman or even Gulool Ja Ja, but not on Mamool Ja Lurkers and Infiltrators. They don't seem to be strong with the Dark element. But THF and NIN mobs have obscene levels evasion - a stat the falls under AGI.

We have no native elemental skills to capitalize on. AGI is our modifier for QD Accuracy, aside from merits. What I'm saying here is that if a mob has higher AGI than us, our QDs are subject to their level of evasion. AGI is a stat for evasion as well.

And what happens when a mob has insanely higher AGI than we do, class?

We miss. But magic would not.

What I'm saying is that element is not the only factor here and QD is not pure magic. If element were the only factor, we'd be stacking MND and INT gear instead of AGI and landing this stuff.

COR does not entirely play by the rules of RDM or BRD, just like BLU doesn't entirely play by all the rules of the mage jobs that proceeded them. They do use melee stats to affect their physical spells and physical spells can be resisted. We're both subject to different rules as well.

[Armando]

COR does not entirely play by the rules of RDM or BRD, just like BLU doesn't entirely play by all the rules of the mage jobs that proceeded them. They do use melee stats to affect their physical spells and physical spells can be resisted. We're both subject to different rules as well.

Technically, BLU spells still play entirely by the rules (they just play by the rules of melee.) Their physical spells are calculated like melee hits, are subject to 99% of the rules of melee WS (parrying, shield block, evasion, Souleater, Mighty Strikes, Sneak Attack, Guarding, Perfect Dodge, Invincible, and Arrow Shield all affect them; Magic Shield, on the other hand, doesn't. They also get the damage type bonuses and penalties, as you know.) They're only exempted from a very small ammount of rules (I believe Double Attack trait doesn't kick in on spells.) Also, they can't be resisted. The only way in which they really bend the rules is that they need to be casted like a spell instead of simply used like a WS (but even then they're subject to all the rules that pertain to casting spells...)

If imps were so strong with Dark, then Dark Shot would indeed be resisted more, but I land more Dispels on them than RDMs seem to now, so I'm thinking Dark Shot is just Dark by name and has nothing to do with the element itself.

But isn't Dispel unnaturally accurate? I've heard you can land it easily even when subbed.

It certainly is possible that it can both miss and resist, but testing it on different mobs sounds a bit iffy. Do you have any high level WAR friends? If you do, you could test Light/Dark shot several times on a highly evasive mob, and then start Shield Breaking them and see if there's any difference.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Armando

Technically, BLU spells still play entirely by the rules (they just play by the rules of melee.) Their physical spells are calculated like melee hits, are subject to 99% of the rules of melee WS (parrying, shield block, evasion, Souleater, Mighty Strikes, Sneak Attack, Guarding, Perfect Dodge, Invincible, and Arrow Shield all affect them; Magic Shield, on the other hand, doesn't. They also get the damage type bonuses and penalties, as you know.) They're only exempted from a very small ammount of rules (I believe Double Attack trait doesn't kick in on spells.) Also, they can't be resisted. The only way in which they really bend the rules is that they need to be casted like a spell instead of simply used like a WS (but even then they're subject to all the rules that pertain to casting spells...)

Well, I was more just getting at their physical spells were subject to melee rules, its something only applicable to their class since a SMN can't do the same for their Avatar's physical spell by equipping accuracy and attack gear like a BLU would.

But isn't Dispel unnaturally accurate? I've heard you can land it easily even when subbed.

Yeah, even subbed, RDM's Dispel is really accuracte, even on gods you can land it. Finale, however, is subject to seeing more resists since you only have singing skill to support it. Singing skill is geared to buffs while the other skills skew to debuff and you have no access to those instruments as /BRD anyway. COR's Dark shot seems to go off in most circumstances like RDM's but struggles in a handful of areas.

It certainly is possible that it can both miss and resist, but testing it on different mobs sounds a bit iffy. Do you have any high level WAR friends? If you do, you could test Light/Dark shot several times on a highly evasive mob, and then start Shield Breaking them and see if there's any difference.

Its worth a try, I definately am not short on WAR buddies. Gravity might also help for this as it does lower evasion by 5%.

Its iffy to test stuff like this on lower mobs at 75, which is why I've been debating the whole "its a resist" notion since the update. Sometimes testing things at high level skews the results. Tests in levelcapped areas or data from level 40+ players would give more results.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

lementals are all strongly attuned to a particular element. They're rigged resist their own element by default, regardless of level difference. So its not exactly the most perfect test on earth, Dan. I can land Ice Shot on an Ice Elemental using Peacemaker on Firesday, I'm still only going to do 9 damange. That's practically a full resist, a 100 percent resist is 0, but it still lands every time. So, so much for that idea.

First off, the direct-damage Quick Draws never miss. They either do damage, or have "no effect" (in the case of, say, Magic Shield).

Second, elementals aren't immune to direct-damage magical attacks, regardless of their element. They resist them heavily, but they still do damage. Which is exactly what happened with your Ice Shot.

And this doesn't explain why Dark and Light Shot land rather reliably now on a Mamool Ja Blusterer, Philosopher, Pikeman or even Gulool Ja Ja, but not on Mamool Ja Lurkers and Infiltrators. They don't seem to be strong with the Dark element. But THF and NIN mobs have obscene levels evasion - a stat the falls under AGI.

I have never missed an Infiltrator or Lurker with Light Shot. The only Mamool Ja I've ever missed are a Pikeman (DRG) and Philosopher (BLM), neither of which have significant AGI or Evasion.

We have no native elemental skills to capitalize on. AGI is our modifier for QD Accuracy, aside from merits. What I'm saying here is that if a mob has higher AGI than us, our QDs are subject to their level of evasion. AGI is a stat for evasion as well.

Um, no. Evasion is partially derived from AGI, not the other way around.

And if Evasion really decreases Quick Draw accuracy, why doesn't Ranged Accuracy increase it? It doesn't add up.

And what happens when a mob has insanely higher AGI than we do, class?
We miss. But magic would not.

If you're talking about an AGI vs. AGI comparison, RNG beastmen would have the best chance of resisting (since RNG has the highest AGI score in the game). It should come as no surprise that I've landed Light Shot on every troll RNG I've ever fired it at. The only troll I've ever missed Light Shot on was a DRK.

What I'm saying is that element is not the only factor here and QD is not pure magic. If element were the only factor, we'd be stacking MND and INT gear instead of AGI and landing this stuff.

Why do you find it hard to believe that a magical attack can be based on a stat other than MND or INT? BRD songs aren't based on MND or INT, and they're magical.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

DMG on the bullet and gun determines the base potential damage of QD.
DMG is a melee stat.
Elemental Cards are based on the elements.
Elemental Cards replace the bullet when QD its fired.
AGI and merits determine the accuracy of the QD.
AGI is also a melee stat.

Since melee stats guide the magic side of QD, its not out of the realm of reason to think that mob AGI and Evasion would play some part in counteracting it - be they "resists" or "misses."

And Dan, keep in mind you have - what? - full marksmanship merits, right? That could skew your results drastically compared to someone without them. I know you didn't put much stock in meritting QD Accuracy before the recent update, you skewed to Phantom Roll Recast and Bust Duration instead.

Additionally, I find it odd you think QD is pure magic, but stick to Wind Staff over Light Staff for Light Shot purely because AGI is a QD stat. Light Staff could very well have an effect on Light Shot's sleep, the staves affect all their other resepctive elemental shots, so why not this one? As far as BRDs and RDMs go, they've proven that works, why go against it?

Because you feel COR is different, correct?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

DMG on the bullet and gun determines the base potential damage of QD.
DMG is a melee stat.
Elemental Cards are based on the elements.
Elemental Cards replace the bullet when QD its fired.
AGI and merits determine the accuracy of the QD.
AGI is also a melee stat.

Since melee stats guide the magic side of QD, its not out of the realm of reason to think that mob AGI and Evasion would play some part in counteracting it - be they "resists" or "misses."

Except that Ranged Accuracy doesn't increase QD accuracy at all. So if RACC doesn't help it, why should Evasion hurt it?

And Dan, keep in mind you have - what? - full marksmanship merits, right? That could skew your results drastically compared to someone without them.

There is no evidence to suggest that marksmanship skill (which simply gives RACC and RATK) affects QD accuracy, at all. I'm open to controlled tests producing a solid foundation of data that says otherwise, but other than that, as far as I'm concerned, it's AGI or merits only.

Additionally, I find it odd you think QD is pure magic, but stick to Wind Staff over Light Staff for Light Shot purely because AGI is a QD stat. Light Staff could very well have an effect on Light Shot's sleep, the staves affect all their other resepctive elemental shots, so why not this one?

Yes, Light Staff might have an effect on Light Shot's accuracy. But Wind Staff does have an effect, confirmed by Squenix themselves. For the direct damage QDs, staves definitely increase the damage, but there's no evidence showing that they increase the accuracy.

Since the analogous increase to +damage on Light Shot would be +duration (i.e. increased potency), that's a good place to start. But Light Staff doesn't appear to increase the duration on Light Shot, so even that's a bust.

As far as BRDs and RDMs go, they've proven that works, why go against it?
Because you feel COR is different, correct?

I'd rather choose a bonus that WILL work than a bonus that MIGHT work. When it comes to accuracy, QD has very little in common with any spell; neither +MACC nor Elemental Seal work, for starters.

[Icemage]

Another possibility is that the solution is much simpler than we realize.

Looking at the anecdotal evidence, the two job classes that seem to resist Light and Dark Shot most are NIN and THF. These are consequently two jobs that happen to also have excellent progression in AGI in addition to Evasion.

What if the formula for accuracy for the non-elemental QDs is simply a comparison of player AGI vs. target AGI with Light/Dark resistance factored in (plus Square-Enix's patented voodoo magic random number generation)? That would explain why Dark Shot fails against imps, and why the observed failure rate against THF and NIN is higher.

Also note that Light and Dark Staff do not affect the base duration of Lullaby or Sleep spells, so it doesn't surprise me that they don't affect Light and Dark Shot either. All they do for the spells is decrease the rate of full and partial resists.


Icemage

[Spider-Dan]

While I'm open to the possibility of QD being an AGI vs. AGI comparison, it's worth mentioning that my experiences do not confirm that theory. I've fired many, many Light Shots against Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Hilltroll Rangers (I generally try to avoid fighting THFs as much as possible, though I've fired a few at them too) and I have not noticed any significant increase in resist rate compared to other mob types.

The only mobs I've had any trouble with on Light Shot resists have been Battle Bugards in the Nyzul Isle thickets camp. I was resisted twice in the space of about 45 minutes while wearing a pretty heavy AGI build (not maxed, but substantial).

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

While I'm open to the possibility of QD being an AGI vs. AGI comparison, it's worth mentioning that my experiences do not confirm that theory. I've fired many, many Light Shots against Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Hilltroll Rangers (I generally try to avoid fighting THFs as much as possible, though I've fired a few at them too) and I have not noticed any significant increase in resist rate compared to other mob types.

The only mobs I've had any trouble with on Light Shot resists have been Battle Bugards in the Nyzul Isle thickets camp. I was resisted twice in the space of about 45 minutes while wearing a pretty heavy AGI build (not maxed, but substantial).

How much AGI are you packing though? By empirical observation, it seems Square-Enix is pretty fond of the once-in-a-blue-moon (1-5%) failure rate regardless of formulaic projection(it's not possible to get better than 95% melee accuracy, and you always have a 5% break rate in synthing, for instance). Twice in 45 minutes would certainly qualify - it is very possible that you're already above the cap for success rate, and so any misses might just be random factors aligning against you.


Icemage

[Spider-Dan]

Well, twice in 45 minutes (during a ~90 min party) is actually somewhat shocking, given that I've had 2-3 other resists total in meripo since the patch (maybe 20 hours or so, I'd guess).

I probably had a 2/20 resist rate on Battle Bugards, which (compared to 3/many hundreds) is pretty alarming.

[Icemage]

It's still a pretty small sample though. With that many attempts, it might well be that you just did the equivalent of rolling snake-eyes twice in a short period of time.

2/20 is not alarming. 5/20 would be alarming IMO because then it really would be outside of statistical probability assuming a 1-5% intrinsic failure rate.


Icemage