[Cyrilis]

... umm how exactly is a cooldown time on phantom roll a blessing?
I'm pointing out that giving 4 different rolls on a pt is a hard enough job as it is, adding pulling to that, only adds to the plate of what COR already has. I can promise you, if you COR/NIN it, and pull, you will not roll perfectly for 20 solid minutes, let alone a sitting of exp, I know myself I get overloaded and will forget where I'm at in rolling, or I might even go as far as forgetting an entire roll.
Personally I'm the first one to say I can't roll correctly and pull at the same time, so I won't do both unless the pts asks me.

To me, COR is all about their die, and their rolling, and to not take full priority over that, means your not doing your job correctly "For the most part"
Look I have nothing against people wanting to do their own thing, but to me? There are alot better options then having a COR pull, because we simply have other things to take care of instead doing something another job can effectively do themselves. And, if the COR/NIN isn't pulling, theres not much use to the sub beyond that.

And mentioning with my first post, I said I have no idea about end game "But"; I bet COR/NIN could be monterous with merits, killer gear, and the right experience and skill. What I'm pointing out is, for the most part, /NIN means, dual wield and shadows, and if your not pulling, dual wield alone isn't enough reason to sub something, not in my book at least.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm pointing out that giving 4 different rolls on a pt is a hard enough job as it is, adding pulling to that, only adds to the plate of what COR already has. I can promise you, if you COR/NIN it, and pull, you will not roll perfectly for 20 solid minutes, let alone a sitting of exp, I know myself I get overloaded and will forget where I'm at in rolling, or I might even go as far as forgetting an entire roll.

Well, my experience says otherwise. I've pulled as BRD and COR at merit levels and kept four buff rotations for both and its much harder for BRD to do that. It may not seem believeable and lots of people will make it seem like it isn't possible, but a good BRD or COR can buff and pull without letting buffs drop.

But by your own admission, you're not at merit level yet. Things change for COR there. If you spend lots of time meleeing at 72+, you will have difficulty seeing the best possible chains. I almost buff, sleep and pull exclusively now. Any bullets used are for pulls and the odd WS. If I have a BRD in PT, I do have more time to melee, but will also assist in pulling and sleeping additional mobs to keep chains high.

[Cyrilis]

If COR changes entirely at lvl 72, then your probably right. To me, it just makes more sense if someone else, say a War, or Rng. Pulling is pratically a different job alltogether, and as we all know, you need a head for keeping track of rolling, as your average middle lvl COR struggles and adjusts for it. If you can manage to do both flawlessly, all the power to you. I know when I try and do both, I'm burnt out after a few hours, therefore I found it smarter for someone else to pull (of course a job effective at pulling) instead of just standing there, while I can concentrate on rolling, and the free time I get per roll, I can dedicate it to more damage, more damage I could never do as a puller.
My real arguement is that Corsair die should be kept as a priority, and your average COR/NIN I find does not do so. Argueably it could swing the other way. COR/RNGs that I find attempt to deal more damage then the RNG beside them instead of caring to their buffs.
The only thing I can say is, with the experience I've had thus far "save for ToAu most of the time" is that your sooner or later gonna hit a dry spell for a mob, or at least get held up pulling and lose time over it. Long story short, if it CAN be avoided, a COR shouldn't pull, They are potentially able to do so, but at a cost for the average player.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Cyrilis

and the free time I get per roll, I can dedicate it to more damage, more damage I could never do as a puller.

So could the other person who's acting as puller. In fact, they could probably do more damage in that time than you can. I'm not saying this to put down COR, but if you think you have the direct damage output of a WAR or RNG, you're kidding yourself.

Long story short, if it CAN be avoided, a COR shouldn't pull, They are potentially able to do so, but at a cost for the average player.

Pulling is costly to the puller no matter who it is - not necessarily in gil terms, but in time. Especially in those parties that are trying to maintain infinite chains, the puller needs to leave camp before the previous mob dies, meaning they are unable to do damage during the last part of the fight. This is why jobs with very low damage output, like bard, are favored for pulling; once their buffs are in effect they're contributing to the fight even if they are no longer physically present. (This could be applied to RDM, too, if they're not also acting as main healer; I haven't seen many RDM pullers outside of manaburns but there's no reason they couldn't.) Having a WAR or RNG leave camp early can noticeably lengthen the fight.

It's a very different dynamic from lower levels where you need a certain amount of time between fights for people to rest and most DDs will just be standing around if they aren't pulling. Personally I prefer the traditional way (all other things being equal) but there is currently an extreme exp rate imbalance in favor of the speedkill party and you can't argue with results.

[Murphie]

While I definitely agree with the points about endgame pulling, there is a lot of game prior to that. And by the time a COR or any job reaches that point, they should have a pretty reasonable understanding of what they need to do (I realize this isn't often the case, but one can hope).

It would be great if folks could step out of their endgame mentality a bit and talk about the middle-game, especially when the OP and thread really have little to do with the specifics of endgame TP burn parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Murphie

While I definitely agree with the points about endgame pulling, there is a lot of game prior to that. And by the time a COR or any job reaches that point, they should have a pretty reasonable understanding of what they need to do (I realize this isn't often the case, but one can hope).

It would be great if folks could step out of their endgame mentality a bit and talk about the middle-game, especially when the OP and thread really have little to do with the specifics of endgame TP burn parties.

This isn't so much about endgame pulling as it is some people selling their job class, as well as their own skill short.

One major thing changed about the job right as I hit the high levels - Quick Draw recast. Light Shot and Dark Shot. I wasn't a fan of the changes, in fact, I still think the Sleep and Dispel effects were needless additions, but now that I do have a sleep I see no good reason not to capitalize on it. The recast tweak was very much appreciated.appreciated.

This change affects COR from 40 onward, that middle game you want to talk about. Now, I wouldn't advocate using Quick Draw to pull in competitive camps since there is a mild hate spike and you'll only get the threnody-like effect if you pull with elemental shots, but in competitive camps, it admittedly can be used (or abused) to that end. I'd save to help with enfeebles, but the situation wouldn't always make that practical. Some PTs I rarely even saw an enfeeble anyway.

Before the update, I would have fulling agreed it wasn't very practical for COR to pull, but not because of my buffs, but because of our high delay weapons. That all changed with the update, we have the potential to pull faster now.

And I just don't agree that Phantom Roll requires such a high level of concentration that you can't pull. I pulled for the majority of my levels, as /RNG at that. Buffs were always up.

People would decribe RDM or WHM as a costant balancing act, but COR and BRD are no different in that regard. You reach a point in any of those jobs where you just stop thinking about what needs to be done and just do it. At that point you're trying to figure out how to do it more efficiently.

If you don't do that, you won't grow in your job as well as others may.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

This isn't so much about endgame pulling as it is some people selling their job class, as well as their own skill short.

Then why is everyone talking about how pulling relates to TP burns? I mean, I get what you're saying with regard to broader scope, but I just wish folks could post from a more objective view, like you are in this thread.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Murphie

Then why is everyone talking about how pulling relates to TP burns? I mean, I get what you're saying with regard to broader scope, but I just wish folks could post from a more objective view, like you are in this thread.

I think people just like to talk about it now because once upon a time you could only ever burn exclusively with RNG or BLM PTs ...or so we thought. Back then. people also focused on EXP per kill rather than EXP per hour, they built PTs to fight IT+++.

Sanction changed that. VT became viable EXP targets and people starting looking at the EXP per hour instead of per kill. Now that practially everyone can do a burn-type PT, they feel all warm, fuzzy and special that they can do this and like to talk about it a lot.

Some people you can't get to shut up about TP burn. Its always "burn" this or "meripo" that. People who live in endgame just have a nasty habit of giving advice from endgame. When they talk about how things are done at endgame levels so much, people try to emulate what they're doing at lower level and we... get things like Valkurm or that DRK/THF pre-30.

[Vyuru]

My thoughts to the OP.

Gun delay is rather long, about as long or longer than the longbows correct? 480ish delay, so assuming that you are competing with other parties, I would rather have a warrior or some other job provoke pull if that's all they have, or use a ranged attack such as a chakram, crossbow+status bolts are great, or there might be other fast acting pulling abilities that I'm not aware of.

And yes, alot of people disapprove of pulling with provoke, but I've done it for awhile now when I've had to with no problems.

In a camp with little to no competition, I'd rather have a samurai pull if you have one, most that I've partied with go as sam/thf and carry a bow and arrows with them, so flee can help with the pulls sometimes lvl 50+ My party experiances with samurai pulling was mainly in the Boyahda Tree leveling off of crawlers/crabs, against mobs like Raptors or Pugils, you would probably prefer someone with shadows, such as a thf/nin or war/nin.

And it's unlikely to happen, but never ask the tank to pull since he's a warrior. Most of the time I wind up tanking with my warrior (lvl 39) and I cannot go out and pull then be expected to hold hate if I got beatup on the way back. It's best to have a puller who shouldn't be drawing alot of hate so that the whm can just toss out a Regen on them when they get back to camp instead of feeling the need to toss out a Cure III.

[Aeolus]

TP burn is like lv52+ so isnt really end game mentality and the OP doesnt have his lv posted or in the drop down menu so how do you know he isnt talking about TP burn..

[Murphie]

I'm sorry about your keyboard.

And I agree, BBQ. It's an annoying habit that a lot of folks have, but thankfully there are still enough folks out there with who understand that different perspectives are necessary.

[Spider-Dan]

COR is one of the best pullers at endgame, equal to any BRD. I have gotten spoiled (by myself, as ridiculous as that sounds) to the point where now, all I do in parties with BRDs is complain to myself about how they don't know how to pull. COR is really, really, really good at merit pulling. And this shouldn't even be under dispute.

But let's talk about non-merit. So there are basically three types of non-merit parties:

1) TP burn- Whether or not COR should pull in these basically depends on how good it is. If the party is capable of killing at a rate past chain 7, COR or BRD should be pulling and staging. However, this is rare pre-merit. If it's a party that can kill for chain 5-6 but nothing past that, anyone with ranged can pull. I'd generally prefer someone with a xbow, in hopes that they can stick an early acid bolt on the pull.

If you are pulling a mob with superior movement speed (raptors, tigers, colibri, puks, coeurls), someone with shadows should pull.

2) SC parties. These are all but dead, but if you somehow end up in one, someone with a fast ranged weapon should probably pull.

3) Manaburn. COR should pull, period.

COR really becomes a top-tier pulling option at LV72 when they get access to Peacemaker. Once you reach that point, the only job that should ever pull over COR is BRD.

[Murphie]

Parties with a "traditional" setup that could SC but don't actually exist in pretty good number prior to Burn party levels. I wouldn't say they were all but dead.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

COR really becomes a top-tier pulling option at LV72 when they get access to Peacemaker. Once you reach that point, the only job that should ever pull over COR is BRD.

Depending on the camp, I may still pull even with a BRD in the merit PT, especially so in Caedarva Mire or the new Thickets camp where mobs pop around you at any given time, so it helps just to to pull/sleep if only to hold more mobs to kill. Plus, you can support the BRD on sleeping mobs and vice versa.

Mamool Ja Staging point I'd really just let BRD take up pulling there unless you decided to camp in the middle of the mobs. If you're meriting in the safer spots, I skew back to /RNG sub and just melee/buff and back BRD with Light Shot if Lullaby fails.

But whenever I am main puller and no BRD is present, melee is bottom of the list. Hell, melee drops right off the list in most cases. I've taken Quick Draw down to 52 seconds and i'm almost ready to merit it again. It just helps keep that EXP rolling in with QD's timer lowered.

At lower levels, mixing melee in is of a more even priority to buffing. Pulling may not be as easy in some areas, but pulling and keeping buffs up is still viable, you just have to avoid being linear in your approach to buffing. You have a full 45 seconds to play with Double up and there's nothing to stop pulling in that time except melee and you do not always have to melee.

And that's the great failing people have with the ToA jobs, they are only looking for melee from them. The melee aspect to COR is a bonus, if its the main draw for you in this job, you persued COR for the wrong reason. Melee is fine for the majority of the levels and awesome with /RNG, but things can and will change and melee becomes situational.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphie

Parties with a "traditional" setup that could SC but don't actually exist in pretty good number prior to Burn party levels. I wouldn't say they were all but dead.

SC parties without a BLM to burst are pointless, and I don't think I partied with a single BLM from 50-75 (excepting manaburn).

That's what I mean by "all but dead."