[Karinya]

Interesting. According to that test, for Wizard, unlucky # still actually provides a noticeable buff (unlike Chaos and Healer's).

I wonder if there are any other rolls with that property.

[Spider-Dan]

Updated the original post to include Chaos Roll % and Evoker's Roll returns. I'm also moving the Chaos Roll testing I did down here:

LV35 COR/RNG, 131 ATK
II = 5 = 3.8% increase
III = 5 = 3.8% increase
IV = 15 = 11.5% increase
V = 8 = 6.1% increase
VI = 9 = 6.9% increase
VII = 9 = 6.9% increase
VIII = 1 = 0.8% increase
IX = 10 = 7.6% increase
X = 12 = 9.2% increase
XI = 24 = 18.3% increase
Bust = -9 = 6.9% decrease

LV35 COR/RNG, 152 ATK
II = 6 = 3.9% increase
III = 6 = 3.9% increase
IV = 17 = 11.2% increase
V = 9 = 5.9% increase
VI = 10 = 6.6% increase
VII = 10 = 6.6% increase
VIII = 1 = 0.7% increase
IX = 12 = 7.9% increase
X = 14 = 9.2% increase
XI = 27 = 17.8% increase
Bust = -10 = 6.6% decrease

35COR/WAR (133 ATK)
I = 5
II = 5
III = 5
IV = 15
V = 8
VI = 9
VII = 9
VIII = 1
IX = 10
X = 12
XI = 24
Bust = -9

35COR/WAR with Berserk (166 ATK)
I = 5
II = 5
III = 5
IV = 15
V = 8
VI = 9
VII = 9
VIII = 1
IX = 11 (!)
X = 12
XI = 24
Bust = -9

37COR/RNG (138 ATK) partied with 69WAR/NIN (289 ATK)
I = 5 (3.6% increase) / 6 (2.1% increase)
II = 5 (3.6% increase) / 6 (2.1% increase)
III = 5 (3.6% increase) / 6 (2.1% increase)
IV = 16 (11.6% increase) / 19 (6.6% increase)
V = 8 (5.8% increase) / 10 (3.5% increase)
VI = 9 (6.5% increase) / 11 (3.8% increase)
VII = 9 (6.5% increase) / 11 (3.8% increase)
VIII = 1 (0.7% increase) / 2 (0.7% increase)
IX = 11 (8.0% increase) / 13 (4.5% increase)
X = 12 (8.7% increase) / 14 (4.8% increase)
XI = 25 (18.1% increase) / 29 (10.0% increase)
Bust = -9 (6.5% decrease) / 0

edit: Also adding Arek's Healer's Roll data in here, as I no longer have a link to the original thread:

Arek from Remora has provided the following data on Healer's Roll (as a 34COR/13RDM):
[code]Total Roll 1st tick 2nd tick 3rd tick 4th tick Effect
No Roll 12 25 39 54 --
I 13 27 42 58 hMP +1
II 13 27 42 58 hMP +1
III 19 39 60 82 hMP +7
IV 14 29 45 62 hMP +2
V 14 29 45 62 hMP +2
VI 15 31 48 66 hMP +3
VII 13 27 42 58 hMP +1
VIII 16 33 51 70 hMP +4
IX 16 33 51 70 hMP +4
X 17 35 54 74 hMP +5
XI 21 43 66 >88* hMP +9
BUST 9 19 30 42 hMP -3[/code]

[Spider-Dan]

Added Corsair's Roll data and a link to Kylen's roll calculator spreadsheet.

[Spider-Dan]

Updated with fixed Wizard's Roll data (though for some reason, all the formatting in my original post was broken).

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Karinya

Interesting. According to that test, for Wizard, unlucky # still actually provides a noticeable buff (unlike Chaos and Healer's).
I wonder if there are any other rolls with that property.

Based on the updated data, this seems to not be a property of Wizard's Roll specifically, but rather of rolls for which the appropriate job is in the party. (The early results for Wizard's were apparently done with BLM in party but not noted as such, which made it appear that it always provided a noticeable bonus.)

In other words, unlucky numbers provide negligible or no bonuses UNLESS you have the right job in party and then they still provide a modest bonus. The effect of the roll and the effect of the right job are additive, so having the right job effectively makes the roll more consistent as well as better (the relative difference between a good result and a bad result is much less).

This suggests that optimal roll strategy may be different for rolls that have the appropriate job in party and for ones that don't. In particular, the theory that an unlucky 8 or 9 isn't doing you any good anyway so you may as well try and get off it (assuming you don't already have a bust, or you know it is about to wear off) doesn't really seem to apply if you have the right job in party; then high unlucky numbers don't do *as much* good but they do still do some, so you are probably better off leaving them. (You still have a 2/3 chance of getting off unlucky 7 and improving it significantly, so I would still do that.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The no-real-math-but-really-effing-wordy version:

With any roll, the lucky and unlucky are four numbers apart respectively - (2,6), (3,7), (4,8) and (5,9). The numbers in between the lucky and unlucky have progressive buff values in each roll so, in general, the higher the number, the better, except for when you hit lucky (great buff), unlucky(weakest buff) or 11 (best possible buff). A bonus is added for having the job that compliments the roll in PT.

You should always strive for the best possible buff within reason, but if you hit lucky, no shame in just stopping right there. In the event of rolling an unlucky number, bust it. However, wait to bust when the Double Up effect is about end. This way, if you roll again and happen to land on a passable number or 11, you can just stick with that number and the duration and effect of the buff starts from that new value.

If you do bust, its time to play conservatively. If you roll unlucky again and its a unlucky number, just deal with it and think about the next buff. Double Bust Status prevents COR from rolling for at least four full minutes when busts happen in succession. However, if you know your original bust is about to fade, try again, having one bust on yourself isn't terribly detrimental to your performance.

Most often, its good to roll a Phantom Roll that matches the jobs in PT, however, there are rolls that never go out of style:

Evoker's Roll (SMN) - its refresh, so with mages, you'll always roll it.
Healer's Roll (WHM) - MP healing bonus while resting, the effect is cumalative regardless of where the +hMP value rolled begins.
Samurai Roll (SAM, duh) - TP bonus for each melee hit.
Fighter's Roll (WAR) - Double Attack is still good for melees subbing THF or NIN and even moreso for those subbing WAR.
Beast Roll (BST)- pet physical attack bonus, works on Avatars, if you're good on refreshers and have a SMN in PT, no reason not to roll it unless MP is getting low. Most SMNs prefer physical blood pacts and Beast Roll counts toward that.

All others I'd use depending on if the job is in PT or not. Rouge's Roll is at its best with THF in PT, for example. Warlock's Roll is really only good if RDM is really on enfeebling duty. Wizard's Roll really depends on how well the main healer is doing, if low MP, Healer's and Evoker's Roll instead.

MNK, BLU and DRG rolls seldom see use for me, but I think I'd do DRG at least with SMNs using magical blood pacts whether a DRG was there or not.

Its important to also roll by the situation rather than to roll completely based on the jobs present. Gallant and Ninja Roll do very little for anyone but the tanks and an AoE buffer needs to buff for the whole frontline and not just part of it. But in the event of a NIN tanking a deadly NM, Ninja Roll (especially when stacked with Mambos) and even Choral Roll (Aquaveil) can be of great benefit. But if you have a PLD and DRG on frontline duty, neither of thier rolls are of benefit, so I'd defer to other buffs such as Hunter's, Chaos or Fighter's Roll.

COR Buffing is just as situational as it is about basing it on jobs present. Its also worth noting the gear your melees are using and what food is being used. You shouldn't have to buff based on PT weaknesses, but there are times you may have to, so /check your PT members.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Karinya

Based on the updated data, this seems to not be a property of Wizard's Roll specifically, but rather of rolls for which the appropriate job is in the party.

Healer's Roll and Evoker's Roll don't work like that, whether you have the job or not. And Chaos Roll takes level-penalties even without a DRK.

(The early results for Wizard's were apparently done with BLM in party but not noted as such, which made it appear that it always provided a noticeable bonus.)

Actually, the previous version did specify that those results were with BLM. I can't find an old version (I edited all three that I maintain), but I specifically remember editing that sentence out yesterday when I added both BLM and no-BLM stats for Wizard's. And the test I had originally linked to (here) said it as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Healer's Roll and Evoker's Roll don't work like that, whether you have the job or not. And Chaos Roll takes level-penalties even without a DRK.

You're getting at the fact that Healer's and Evoker's have static duration bonuses (like Refresh, Ballad or Paeon) and aren't based on percentage like all the other rolls, correct? They're really the only Rolls where level difference isn't a factor at all, the rest are based on the idea that you have a percentage of a job trait relative to your level.

And with WHM for Healers and SMN present for Evoker's the bonus they give is also a static bonus, not a percentage bonus like the other jobs would give to their respective rolls.

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, in retrospect, I misunderstood the last post I replied to.

I thought Karinya was referring to the level-based penalties, when she was just talking about the returns on Unlucky with/without the corresponding job in party.

[Achaicus]

I have the same sorts of questions as DigitalisAkujin.

I have not played since the update (busy with work, etc), but might be able to in a few months.

Thanks in advance.

[Callisto]

Something I just noticed that hasn't been stated...zoning and/or logging out will clear bust status. For zones that you camp right next to the exit, if you happen to get a double bust, just zone out and zone back in. If not you can log out and log back in in roughly 35 seconds total. If you aren't pulling, this can be worth doing instead of waiting 3-4 minutes for one of the two busts to wear off.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally Posted by Callisto

Something I just noticed that hasn't been stated...zoning and/or logging out will clear bust status.

...

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Removing/replacing Roll effects

You cannot manually cancel a Roll effect. However, a COR can overwrite a current Roll with a different Roll, provided that he does not have the desired replacement Roll active on himself. If you attempt to do a Phantom Roll for a Roll that is current active, you will receive the message, "The same roll is already active on <me>." Consequently, this means that you cannot "renew" a Roll like you can with a BRD song; you have to wait for it to expire (or replace it with a different Roll) first.

A COR main can provide two active Roll effects to the party. You can replace either of these effects with any inactive roll; however, if you Bust, you (the COR) can only have 1 effect active until Bust status expires (however, you can still provide two effects to the party by rotating your 1 open effect slot). If you Bust again and have double Bust status, you will be unable to successfully Roll until one of your Busts expires; any Roll attempt will result in "No effect."

Zoning will clear all Roll effects.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Be nice, Dan. Callisto isn't Carrilei.

[Malacite]

this needs to be updated for the changes made to phantom roll

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I actually tried to post the link to Spider-Dan's new roll calculator, but this site interpets the link as "spam" so I put a link to the thread in the post I made earlier this week:

Go here for now