[Sevv]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I'm not just talking about BG, either. If you look at the other sites, and even here at DiV, most of the people who post actively from the endgame perspective and who actually have useful first-hand experience just aren't what I'd call good role models.
Icemage

; ; don't tell murphie... he always wanted to be me when he grew up.

[Saren]

Sorry Itazura but going to agree with Icemage.

I like to learn about game mech, I make the effort to go read so I tried the BG forums because I know they have a lot of research on there. I barely go there because it's just so depressing to wade through all the egos to get to the relevant information. The moment you say engame a lot of things start becoming about status and there's just no way to avoid the ego/drama that brings with it.

The reason I like DiV so much is that there isn't this bit endgame/everyone else divide. It's friendly and inclusive; if someone asks for help you rarely see people posting those smug little one line posts designed to belittle the OP without helping them and when you do it's usually really really justified.

I would love to see a separate mechanics forum though, I spend a fair amount of time searching for game mech stuff I remember having read here. I also don't like the implication that mechanics should be in an endgame forum. Mechanics being relevant to how you play doesn't suddenly kick in when you start choosing merits.

I felt like I should mention Armando in this post somewhere but couldn't decide on how so....mentioned.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I can support the idea of adding a game mechanics discussion subforum, such as you find on StudioGhobli. There really isn't an English speaking equivalent, and that I could see as being very useful, as there are a number of us here with a bent for research

Those topics come up anyway anytime someone (Armando) gets the itch to look into it, and it's the same with endgame topics. I don't really see a need for a new forum about either.

[Sabaron]

The thing I like least about BG is the fact that it's not topically arranged. I'm thinking that creating an "End Game" forum will cause a significant loss of categorization of the data. Blind II is Red Mage only, so rather than bunching it up with Ancient Magic II discussions in a generic "Game Mechanics" forum, I prefer it under "Red Mage" because that's where I'd look first if I was looking for information on Red Mage spells. DiVs best feature is it's categorical approach--I'm not in favor of giving that up. Advanced topics arise as needed in the appropriate categories.

I agree that the personalities that gravitate toward forums that allow them to "stroke their own egos" will most likely not appear here because they can't flame and off-topic about how one's LS pwnd another LS on Fafnir claiming or other mindless drivel. This is just as well. People here read BG and can sift through all of their garbage to bring relevant data they post into this forum (giving due credit of course).

I personally feel that the forum is a research and development tool and that threads like the ones you are talking about should be wikified. The Wiki is where all of the blather and debate get sifted into a usable form. I feel that the focus should be on creating a wiki with advanced data and statistics in it rather than creating an ugly "wall of posts" like BG.

[Aksannyi]

I have to admit, even in my own LS endgame becomes nothing but a big pissing contest. I'd hate to bring that here. I don't talk a whole lot about endgame tbh. When I'm not actively in an endgame event I'd like to not think about it. It's stressful and it makes my head hurt. (Could just be some of the people I have to put up with ... )

This is one of my retreats, this and solo farming. If you guys made an endgame forum here I'd probably avoid it like the plague.

Not that I don't see both sides of the coin here, a forum could be very useful I suppose, I just wouldn't visit it, in most cases.

[Armando]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

Those topics come up anyway anytime someone (Armando) gets the itch to look into it, and it's the same with endgame topics. I don't really see a need for a new forum about either.

You have no idea how much I'd like to see a sub-forum where I can put all my little tests without them being scattered throughout dozens of other sub-forums and a good portion of them being lost due to the passage of time and them not being sticky-worthy. I was actually hoping the Wiki would give me a centralized place to put my tests and stuff, since they don't really inspire that much discussion, and it's info that always has relevance and should be preserved for posterity. But I don't really have a very clear idea of what's going to make it into the wiki so far.

The endgame thing, eh, not that thrilled about the idea but you guys do whatever you want. My only opinion regarding that is that I don't think Game Mechanics should be shared with Endgame, like Saren said. Besides the obvious fact that game mechanics are always relevant, they're rather different things. People looking for game mechanics don't want to wade through endgame posts and people looking for endgame info don't want to wade through game mechanics posts. And should the Endgame sub-forum go straight to hell, so will the game mechanics board. Best to keep them separate if they both get approval.

Also, I'm impressed at how many times I've been mentioned in this thread.

[Mhurron]

I believe the purpose of the FFXIOnline Wiki is to gather posts of that nature. A subforum isn't needed to organize them because another feature was already introduced to do that.

[IfritnoItazura]

So, most people can support a "Game Mechanism" sub-forum? I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised that idea has that much traction. ^_^

* * *

The endgame LS recently joined seems pretty relaxed; it doesn't seem to have any rivalry or major drama going on, as far as I can tell.

Part of it could be because it's relatively new; new to the scene members like me are excited just experiencing endgame contents. Its core member are actually old time endgame people, though--so, the old to the scene members are happy to be there because they are long time friends with many people.

Hard for me to believe that it's impossible to create a civilized endgame discussion place on Dreams, when my in-game experience is so pleasant.

[PiNG]

Read about this, considering it though. Sorry been real busy IRL, too many things going on that i didn't have much time to really get this going. "Advanced Player Discussion" subforum is appreciated? Let me know!

[IfritnoItazura]

Probably don't want to name it "Advanced", since it's somewhat un-PC (it's almost like calling people who aren't interested "primitive"), and invokes the image of BG's "Advanced Player Discussion" and its flame war prone tendencies.

A more focused name would be better; there seem to be a strong opposition from those who have posted opinions against an "endgame" sub-forum (to my regret), but there seem to be a reasonable amount of support for a "game mechanism" sub-forum without "endgame" attached to it.

While I still believe it's possible to have an "Endgame" sub-from with most of the drama suppressed, I'm in the minority here. Of course, if you'd like to go ahead and make an "Endgame" sub-forum anyway, it is your board, and I have no objection to that.

>_> <_<;

[Feba]

PiNG, I think this would be better kept to the wiki. There are already plenty of sites out there for similar discussion, it would be best to keep it to facts here, and facts are better kept in a wiki style environment than a discussion forum.

[Sevv]

I would lean towards "Advanced Game Mechanics and Strategies", this could wrap everything into one. It wouldn't need an extra mod tho, my big problem with this is a big deal of the info will be a copy/paste of bg or wiki info. I believe that there needs to be citation on every copy/paste.

[Yellow Mage]

I've flip-flopped. I'm pretty sure everything that could be discussed in an Advanced Strategies forum could either fit in a Wiki, or be nothing more than flamebait.

[Saren]

I think setting an advanced/basic divide into the forum is only going to cause problems, people are going to disagree about what is advanced and what isn't.

I started thinking about how you could give people a place to discuss all this stuff without having a corralled off VIP area for endgamers and got a little carried away. So, just a suggestion that I am sure, at best, would need some reworking/modifying.

Instead of an endgame or 'advanced forum' how about...

1. Mechanics forum - had popular support and like I said before game mech is not endgame specific. I think most people would agree that Armando has been doing advanced game mechanics for some time and he's not even 75 yet (I think he said 70 recently). Advanced game mechanics isn't defined by what mobs or situations you are applying the mechanics to but by how you are applying them. The only thing with this is that it might work best with some fairly strict posting rules and perhaps a new moderator responsible for deleting random question threads and the like.

2. Instanced/special battle areas forum - with Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Assault etc sub-forums. Give people a place to talk about these things, strategy, setups, what merits/gear xxx job needs to fight xxx mob etc, without making a status separation about them. The name could do with some work because ideally there would be room for besieged and campaign in here aswell.

3. New Subforums in the monsters section - HNM, Sky/Sea NM, BCNM etc, not sure how much you would want there. Again, gives people a dedicated place to talk about them and strategies without attaching status to it as such.


I know Ping is busy and that's a lot more work than just one endgame forum so it might not be practical but I think it might fill the gap that people are finding and keeps the discussion categorized according to what it is rather than how difficult it is to do or how well certain people do it.

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by Saren

I know Ping is busy and that's a lot more work than just one endgame forum so it might not be practical but I think it might fill the gap that people are finding and keeps the discussion categorized according to what it is rather than how difficult it is to do or how well certain people do it.

Ping isn't busy he is just lazy doesn't even have time for me on aim anymore =/