[Armando]

Also, as IfritnoItazura mentioned, lower delay weapons are what work best for Dual Wield. Using higher delay weapons pretty much kills the point.

Noooooooooo. False, false, false! The best weapons to dual wield are almost always also the best weapons to single wield. Their speed is mostly irrelevant unless your job specializes in low Delay weapons, and even then the speed (which is mainly considered for the small TP advantage it would provide) is secondary to DPS. For instance, there's no better weapon combo for THF at 68 than two Hoplites Harpe (other than Harpe anyways, but good luck with that one), and that's two 210 Delay daggers, terribly slow by dagger standards.

So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?

For the most part. But you're assuming two of the same weapon - the Dual Wielder may use weapons with different Delays. There's also the fact that the Dual Wielder has to swing in pairs - if he falls short from the TP needed to get to 100 TP by just one swing, he still has to wait two swing's worth of Delay to get the rest. On the other hand, every time the Dual Wielder engages a mob or uses a WS, he's getting one extra hit's worth of TP for free compared to using a single weapon.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by net.drifter

Also, as IfritnoItazura mentioned, lower delay weapons are what work best for Dual Wield. Using higher delay weapons pretty much kills the point.

I didn't state anything remotely close to that... Please don't put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Armando

For the most part. But you're assuming two of the same weapon - the Dual Wielder may use weapons with different Delays. There's also the fact that the Dual Wielder has to swing in pairs - if he falls short from the TP needed to get to 100 TP by just one swing, he still has to wait two swing's worth of Delay to get the rest. On the other hand, every time the Dual Wielder engages a mob or uses a WS, he's getting one extra hit's worth of TP for free compared to using a single weapon.

Er, I was being literal bout TP gain rate, not "speed to 100+ TP".

Wasn't really assuming two of same weapon; I can see you why you'd thought otherwise, though, since the only example I used was Centurion x2. (Those were the weapons I back at Lv.30.)

In any case, Dual Wield improves melee DoT, Utsusemi offers protection from many attacks--and BLU can output enough to utilize that protection--so, BLU/NIN is a perfectly viable combination. For soloing, it's usually a terrific setup to use, to boot.

[Karinya]

DW improves melee DoT compared to no subjob at all (or to something like /WHM, but if you're BLU/WHM you clearly have concerns other than your damage output), but it doesn't improve it compared to /WAR or /THF. Double Attack or Sneak Attack will improve your melee DoT more than Dual Wield will for any weapons that might reasonably be used by a BLU, and SA will help your physical spells a lot too. Double Attack will also improve your TP gain more than Dual Wield, over the long term.

My conclusion when playing BLU was that /NIN was pretty useless - you won't use the shadows unless your tank really really sucks, and then you'd be better off going /WAR and substitute tanking because there are people squishier than you who will be needing the protection. After 30, /THF is the dominant damage dealing sub for BLU. SA physical spells once per minute are very strong and don't rely on TP (which is largely a sideshow for BLU anyway, since your physical spells are way stronger than your sword WS).

So I would say ignore the lemmings, what you really need for BLU is /WAR and /THF. /NIN is handy for solo spell learning and after 74, and not much else.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Karinya

DW improves melee DoT compared to no subjob at all (or to something like /WHM, but if you're BLU/WHM you clearly have concerns other than your damage output), but it doesn't improve it compared to /WAR or /THF. Double Attack or Sneak Attack will improve your melee DoT more than Dual Wield will for any weapons that might reasonably be used by a BLU, and SA will help your physical spells a lot too. Double Attack will also improve your TP gain more than Dual Wield, over the long term.

Double Attack's base activation rate is 10%, right? Dual Wield I is 10% delay reduction. I think that means they would work out to be roughly the same, with DA ahead in TP gain, but Dual Wield giving stronger WS (on average). Double attack is WAR25, IIRC, so BLU/WAR won't even get it until Lv.50. Before then, BLU/NIN should out damage BLU/WAR.

For melee'ing, Sneak Attack from /THF is terrific for forcing a guaranteed crit hit on regular or WS hit. The lower your base accuracy--the more the party over-hunts--the more it shines. Whether it can outdo DA or DW, though, depends on how long each fight, and how much down time between fights. If one can pre-charge it before every fight, it's great. If fighting is continuous or long, though, it's limited by the 60 second cool down. Besides, it's more efficient to use it to increase spell damage for BLU than melee attack or WS. Used correctly, BLU/THF's melee output will be below BLU/NIN's.

Overall, I think /THF for SA on spells will result in highest damage over time because how it raises the damage/MP ratio, letting the player use few spells to achieve high output. In parties where MP flow isn't a problem for the BLU, though, BLU/NIN can and do abuse Utsusemi and dish out over enmity limit without taking damage--something the BLU/THF cannot compete with.

Originally Posted by Karinya

My conclusion when playing BLU was that /NIN was pretty useless - you won't use the shadows unless your tank really really sucks, and then you'd be better off going /WAR and substitute tanking because there are people squishier than you who will be needing the protection.

BLU, like most DDs, can go over the enmity threshold set by any tank in exp parties, especially at higher levels. BLU/WAR tanking starts to fall off in mid to late 30's on VTs to low ITs, from my personal experience as BLU/WAR (which was what I used the most from Lv.10 to 40).

BLU/NIN isn't just a bandwagon; the combination has real advantages. It's not the ultimate DD setup for BLU--BLU/THF is. Except maybe in WS spam parties where you can never be sure which way the monster will face in the next two seconds; in that case, BLU/NIN is the better DD.

[VZX]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Ah, I see; I took a shortcut unconsciously. lol.

So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?

That should be it. It's slightly better, but in no way worse.

[Lmnop]

From those numbers, looks like dual wield is giving something on a level of 1% faster tp gain... and who knows if it's actually improving "time to 100 tp". But 10% better DPS is a very real benefit of /nin. I'm not sure how it compares to Berserk DoT...

but yeah, /nin is definitely viable. What makes you a lemming is when you start subbing NIN thinking it is the best sub, because someone told you so without analyzing the facts.

Good? Certainly. But it's not like you're subbing IDDQD.

[Raitox]

What level do you guys think /NIN saves a lot more time learning spells (not trying to avoid the job its my main, I'm just a cheapass even at level 68. >.>)

[Karinya]

24, I guess. You can solo some Ts with blu/nin that are difficult with other subs, and if the spell you're looking for is unavailable on any mob lower level than you are...

On the other hand, if you've gotten to 68 without it and not had too much trouble learning your spells (except maybe body slam :D), then you probably don't need it. BLUs have their own blink after 65 anyway (at least to cast between fights), which would probably diminish the usefulness until 74, when utsusemi can be cast between mob swings.

After 74 /nin is horribly overpowered to the point of obviously broken for almost any main job. Everyone should have it, even mages (who will only want to use it in some fights, but they'll REALLY want it for those fights).

[MrMageo]

has anyone ever thought about blu/dnc?

Just popped into my head as i browsed this. I mean it offers some pretty nice things.

ACC boost
EVA boost
Aspir Samba
Erase
Watlzes

I think that right there is better then /NIN for the heavy spell casting blu. (ACC boost would work real nice at low to mid high levels for spell success.)

[Celeal]

IMHO, /DNC is is nice for Campaign Battles. Most of the mob have MP for Aspir Samba, plus Drain Samba I/II has its usage. It is up to the player on how/when/why to use the tools from /DNC.

BLU/SCH seems interesting too

[VZX]

I use BLU/DNC for campaign battle

My usual Spell sets:
Head Butt
Frenetic Rip + Disseverment
Reactor Cool+Cocoon for default defense/enfeebling move.
Sound Blast + Magic hammer for MAB trait and MP return
MP Drainkiss for extra MP return
Actinic Burst and Plasma Charge for Auto-Refresh
Zephyr Mantle and Chaotic Eye for Conserve MP

Aspir Samba + 2 MP smooch move can provide me enough MP to cast magic fruit everytime it's up.
Heck, I even use BLU/NIN with that spell setup and never have to cast utsusemi at all

[Electricity Gone Human]

In my Opinion?

As /NIN pre-70, The Swords are only there for TP Gain and to slightly add on to the Blue Magic Damage you'll be throwing around. I've yet to see some good DoT coming from Dual Wielding Swords, especially on my level 61 BLU with my Musketeer Commander's Falchions. I do have an Ifrit's Blade on hold, though. Maybe that will change things. 70+, however, you're going to need it for TP Burns purely for Utsusemi, and by the time you hit 72, Disseverment will destroy things.

Like LMNOP said, /NIN is viable, but it's not going to be the only sub you'll be using because everyone else thinks it's the end-all be-all subjob for Blue Mage, which it certainly isn't. I personally like /THF, and I'm proud of doing it so far. Death Scissors is hot. The choice in subjob is more of a personal preference outside of TP Burn parties, really.

[VZX]

Originally Posted by Electricity Gone Human

, however, you're going to need it for TP Burns purely for Utsusemi, and by the time you hit 72, Disseverment will destroy things.

You certainly lacking the experience of /NIN. Unless you're in BLU burn, you shouldn't have your sword DoT significantly higher than your spells. My usual damage distribution between swords DoT/WS/Spells is 35/30/35

[Electricity Gone Human]

Originally Posted by VZX

You certainly lacking the experience of /NIN. Unless you're in BLU burn, you shouldn't have your sword DoT significantly higher than your spells.

But I didn't say anything about raising sword DoT over spell damage, did I? So that's helping my point get across.