[hongman]

Ok, so just going through the BLM Solo Guide I was reading about the /nin option, and I thought: If the party had a WHM or even RDM-SMN/WHM, would it not be totally kickass to /NIN in an EXP Party?

At my level (33) I can dual wield 2 Solid Wands, giving a whopping +10 INT there alone.

Plus I get Utsu for in case I pull hate

What do you all think? Im guessing this is a no no since I have never seen a BLM/NIN in a pt (although I do know someone who tanked on WHM/NIN) so is there a big flaw I am missing?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BLM/NIN may seem Kick-ass for PTs, but its more likely to get your ass kicked from PTs. And if you overnuke too freely, no amount of Utsusemi is going to save you.

[hongman]

Thanks omg...that really helped. Stop being such a smart ass with stupid comments.

Ok ok.

1. Please state why it would get me kicked from parties. That is what I am asking in the first place. Re-read my post. I would never just turn up in a pt /nin - I am putting the concept forward to see if it would even be worth thinking about.

2. Having Utsu was just an added bonus. Im not saying I could overnuke "freely" with /NIN.

The way I am thinking is, if the PT is well balanced, and there is no need for the BLM to cast WHM spells, why not? Extra +stat wand, cant hurt.

Can it?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by hongman

Thanks omg...that really helped. Stop being such a smart ass with stupid comments.

It can't be smart and stupid at the same time, pick one

1. Please state why it would get me kicked from parties. That is what I am asking in the first place. Re-read my post. I would never just turn up in a pt /nin - I am putting the concept forward to see if it would even be worth thinking about.

2. Having Utsu was just an added bonus. Im not saying I could overnuke "freely" with /NIN.

The way I am thinking is, if the PT is well balanced, and there is no need for the BLM to cast WHM spells, why not? Extra +stat wand, cant hurt.

Can it?

"If there is no need for BLM to cast WHM spells," is a routine cop-out for using a selfish subjob over a supportive one. Or one devised to get one out of levelling a /WHM sub.

Just because you sub /WHM doesn't mean its just for curing. I will never understand why people look at a WHM sub and think cures are all it is for. There is also Regen, status cures, Stoneskin and Blink. Sneak and invisible to get allies to camp. Oh, and Raise.

Here's why /NIN isn't smiled upon:

- Loss of MP you could get from /WHM or even /SMN.
- Loss of Clear Mind (+hMP trait) from /WHM. Fast MP recovery = good
- Loss of Curative abilities you could have used to support your PT.
- The gain of stats from dual wands is negligable at best, got plenty of places to stuff INT before that.

Am I correct in assuming you're finishing off BLM for RDM and already have NIN finished as a sub for RDM? Where exactly is that WHM sub right now, hm? >.>

[hongman]

There, that was much more helpful (serious tone here). Why couldnt you have done that in the first place?

Anyways:

What is a "selfish subjob"?

As for Staus Cures etc, thats why I mentioned a generally balanced party that has a WHM or at least /WHM. Guess I should of added "with the rigth camp and right mobs". But then /NIN becomes situational, so I guess that answers that.

Loss of MP...I guess here it would be is the tradeoff between lots of MP or more Potent spells.

hMP - good point.

Again, tradeoff between that +INT with the extra wand = more potent spells = faster kills over a few cures here and there. Supporting a party can be done offensively and defensively.

Well, at least it was interesting in my head while it lasted.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by hongman

What is a "selfish subjob"?

Something subbed when a party member doesn't want to assist with another role they could be adding to the PT. This subjob instead adds nothing to output of a PT.

As for Staus Cures etc, thats why I mentioned a generally balanced party that has a WHM or at least /WHM. Guess I should of added "with the rigth camp and right mobs". But then /NIN becomes situational, so I guess that answers that.

Don't pass the buck off to a WHM or SMN/WHM to do everything. A BLM typically nukes steadily and evenly, watching that they don't draw hate. I never expended so much MP on BLM that I couldn't toss out a cure or status cure from time to time.

It can't hurt to help a WHM save some MP with status cures, they have to keep everyone alive and its their MP that determies whether or not a PT can keep a chain, BLMs can usually rest a few ticks or more in any fight, so thier MP isn't as vital to keeping chains, though there are situations where more nuking could be needed.

Again, tradeoff between that +INT with the extra wand = more potent spells = faster kills over a few cures here and there. Supporting a party can be done offensively and defensively.

Offensive support is not the same thing as raw damage dealing. Offensive support is DoT enfeebles, status ailments, Acid Bolts or Demon arrows, Rampart, elemental Ninjutsu, SATA and the like. Nukes are just raw damage. +3-5 extra INT isn't going to be a dramatic boost over what you were single-wielding before.

[Kirsteena]

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. BLM does damage, yes. But helping out your party (in whatever aspect) is the main thing. Sub job traits when you have access to them already don't stack, so extra hMp is irrelevant from /whm won't be there (blm gets better clear mind than whm anyway).

An example. Take for instance your tank sucks, and doesn't turn say, a tiger, away from the mages. Whm gets caught in Roar (AoE Paralyze effect). That whm can't get paralyna off, because they are paralyzed. Blm should have ability to throw out paralyna, doesn't. Tank dies, followed swiftly by rest of party. See where /whm would have helped?

Even at endgame, on blm, most of the time I am on /whm, even though /rdm will often help me out more. The only time I am likely to be on /rdm is for DA camp, when I am MBing heavily, and we will have more than enough healers (and I <3 Phalanx in that situation anyway).

An extra 5 INT isn't going to help you much. It will add about 20 extra damage at most. Not a huge amount in the long run. Int affects lower level spells damage (higher spells are affected by MAB more).

But as an Elvaan, the loss of mp as /nin would be crippling.

I know it is tempted to sub odd things, but please, leave those for solo play. /rdm is a soloing, not a party sub. Same with nin.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Kirsteena

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. BLM does damage, yes. But helping out your party (in whatever aspect) is the main thing. Sub job traits when you have access to them already don't stack, so extra hMp is irrelevant from /whm won't be there (blm gets better clear mind than whm anyway).

Forgot WHM got Clear Mind at 20, wouldn't even show up for him under sub yet anyway, even if it could stack. But he would be losing out on Divine Seal, which can also be very useful.

[hongman]

I admit defeat, if it were.

Not that I was arguing it was useful anyway, I know I am not super-knowledgable in this game and the idea seemed interesting to me, hence I posted for discussion.

Oh well. Like I said, was interesting while it lasted :p

[Haggai]

I was in a party one time with a BLM/NIN. It was in The Crawler's Nest, I was out nuking him everytime. Granted, if I wasn't wearing my Republic Circlet, he'd probably have beaten me, but not by much. All in all, I would say that it wasn't worth it.

BLM/NIN in EXP party is one of those job combinations that seems really cool, but in the end, /WHM or /RDM is much more useful.

Oh, and check out that Republic Circlet, hongman... you may want to consider that for your BLM gear if you're constantly leveling in regions controlled by your country.

EDIT: or even the NQ Bastokan Circlet

[hongman]

Thanks Haggai....

4 months ago I would have said yes, but most often than not, Sandy is hardly ever 1 anymore...

[Haggai]

Originally Posted by hongman

Thanks Haggai....

4 months ago I would have said yes, but most often than not, Sandy is hardly ever 1 anymore...

Oh, it doesn't matter if you're #1 or not... just as long as Sandy controls the area you are using it.

[Omni]

what kirsteena said, you'll be leaching. for blm and smn to not have curing in an xp situation is pretty much a leech.

everyone needs to be useful in xp and curing is important for those close calls.

[Sabaron]

I did BLM/NIN from 30-36 and it did nicely and I'll tell you what my impression was.

If you are going to do it, you have to actually use the jutsus otherwise you're just wasting the extra kick the sub gives. Each jutsu reduces the mob's resistance by 30. Therefore, when you follow-up with a nuke, you get fewer resists thus more efficient mp usage for nuking.

Between the /WHMing and the /NINing. As /WHM I cast cure probably once every 4-5 fights. I was always out of mp, and resists were frequent. I had to carefully control my nukes to make sure I didn't go over. With /NIN I always had extra mp (despite the smaller pool), my nukes rarely got resisted, and I got a small amount of [mp free] damage off the jutsus themselves (from the Magic Attack Bonus trait). I also always pushed one nuke beyond my hate limit using Utsusemi to protect myself. OMG says "Utsusemi won't save you from too much overnuking." In order to actually push that level...the level where 3 shadows and 1 solid punch to the jaw will leave you with hate, you'd have to be nuking the thing while it was beating on you... so just don't do that... As for the Clear Mind, OMG states that /WHM gives you Clear Mind.. It doesn't. Clear Mind of the same level does not stack. BLM always gets Clear Mind at a lower level than WHM, and BLM gets one more level (V) over WHM. /WHM never gets you Clear Mind and as I stated, pre-jutsuing the target will lower your resist rate which increases your damage/mp ratio.

I maintain that BLM/NIN is not selfish. It's smart especially if you already have two healers in the PT. PLD with WHM? BLM/NIN WHM with RDM? BLM/NIN. Another situation where BLM/NIN is nice is if you already have a BLM/WHM. set yourself up as BLM/NIN and the BLM/WHM can follow your spell wheel.

I used BLM/NIN from 30-36. Therefore, any reference to any other level range should not be implied in the above especially use of /NIN before access to elemental jutsus (which is wasteful imo). WHM sub at certain levels gives access to important spells (Level is your main BLM level) --Blink (38), Raise (50), Stoneskin (56), Erase (64), Reraise (66). Those have to be taken into consideration as well, especially since Blink and Stoneskin eliminate the need for Utsusemi: Ichi and an extra Erase can be immensely beneficial when you're dealing with certain AoE status attacks.

Saying that "you have to be useful" seems to indicate that other DD's should shirk their damage boosting sub job abilities in exchange for the occasional Cure II. Perhaps I should ask all those DRK/THFs to do that... Black Mage is not a support character. Of all the characters in the game, Black Mage is most purely DD. BLM has no defensive ability to speak of and his selection of spells is limited primarily to those that cause damage. Support characters, it can be argued, should have Cures. Damage Dealers should not be held to such a responsibility.

[IfritnoItazura]

Read Sabaron's post.

Clear Mind does not stack. Don't bother with /NIN if you don't use the -ton Ninjutsu's to lower resist.

Most of all, go as BLM/WHM if the party may need extra healing. My BLM is has a static party which includes a PLD and a RDM/WHM. I only exp as BLM/WHM--it's better for the party that I can use Regen, Cure II, Cure III, and Curaga. The -na and bar- spells are quite helpful, too, mob dependent.