Brd/dnc?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

BRD is one job which definately cannot usually benefit much from TP, but Lv70+ with Sushi and a Joyuese they could obtain a large amount of TP to use for Drain Samba II, Quickstep, Box Step, Divine Waltz, and Curing Waltz I & II along with their naturally high CHR. What are your thoughts?

Personally I could see this making a good combo for duoing Lv30+ with another job which could produce most of the damage.

[IfritnoItazura]

Sounds good, when you have another BRD for puller?

[Pteryx]

Probably wouldn't work in most party situations. Both typical BRD roles in a party demand too much moving around for meleeing to be practical for the job. As for soloability, no idea. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BRD is far too busy of a job to pull off melee viably in an EXP or merit PT setting, you'd have to have a 2nd BRD pulling to even get the chance to do it and you'd probably spend more time buffing to pick up his slack.

[Jarre]

To enable the DNC affect of drain samba you need to hit the mob evey 5 seconds, as a brd you do not melee much as your oncentrating on playing your instrument most of teh time giving buffs etc. /DNC would be more inclined to sub to melee jobs to get the best out of it.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I understand that BRD is expected to pull in XP and merit settings now, but they do get burned out doing it.

Here are some questions that I believe new BRDs might find helpful if answered by experienced BRDs:

Would it be possible to pull on BRD/DNC without the aide of Shadows?

Would it be possible for another job such as RNG or THF to pull while the BRD sleeps the pulls?

THF could still contribute DMG with RNG ATK, SA, TA, and WS. RNG could still contribute with RNG ATK and WS. The BRD would just need to assist with sleeping the pulled enemies.

Would you enjoy playing BRD more if you didn't have to constantly pull?

Would it provide enough healing to allow for the following setup?
PLD/WAR, DDx2, RNG/NIN, THF/NIN, BRD/DNC

I was mostly thinking about how to make BRD more helpful with DD heavy groups since at all levels they are plentiful.

Other jobs which have low WS DMG and might benefit from /DNC are PUP and RDM, but I was trying to leave those out of this forum. Quite frankly a SAM/DNC could do all your healing if a SMN, WHM, or RDM was unavailable.

[Ellipses]

Personally I could see this making a good combo for duoing Lv30+ with another job which could produce most of the damage.

I could definitely see this combo working for smaller groups, since you're probably not going to be running around getting different songs up on different groups. As long as you've got your bases covered on the range of healing functions you need (status effect removal, etc.), and hate bouncing isn't a problem, or you've got a solid tank. All sorts of kooky stuff works in duos and trios that doesn't in a full party.

[Icemage]

Here are some questions that I believe new BRDs might find helpful if answered by experienced BRDs:

Would it be possible to pull on BRD/DNC without the aide of Shadows?

Yes, but you'll take some hits no matter how good/fast you are. Someone's going to have to patch you up from time to time if you do this.

Would it be possible for another job such as RNG or THF to pull while the BRD sleeps the pulls

Yes, but not as fast. Elegy is a much faster attack than any ranged attack. This is OK with Corsair, however.

THF could still contribute DMG with RNG ATK, SA, TA, and WS. RNG could still contribute with RNG ATK and WS. The BRD would just need to assist with sleeping the pulled enemies.

I wouldn't want a THF away from melee in a merit setting. Too inefficient. RNG is OK.

Would you enjoy playing BRD more if you didn't have to constantly pull?

I may be in the minority but I don't mind pulling.

Would it provide enough healing to allow for the following setup?
PLD/WAR, DDx2, RNG/NIN, THF/NIN, BRD/DNC

Not enough for consistency. Bear in mind that as /DNC, you still have to hit, and Bards only have B in attack skill, so even when you're not playing songs, you're not hitting as often (and thus not activating Samba consistently).

There's also the issue that most merit-worthy targets still pack quite a punch, so your PLD is going to get overworked with spot-healing things like Firespit or Pecking Flurry or whatever.

I was mostly thinking about how to make BRD more helpful with DD heavy groups since at all levels they are plentiful.

I have never had a melee complain about getting Minuets in a party. Ever.

Other jobs which have low WS DMG and might benefit from /DNC are PUP and RDM, but I was trying to leave those out of this forum.

Puppetmaster I can see as a prime example of a good use of /DNC. Their WS are so unspectacular, and they're in melee anyway. RDM is less so because they suffer from caster-itis like Bards - too much time spent casting to make any melee configuration optimal.

Quite frankly a SAM/DNC could do all your healing if a SMN, WHM, or RDM was unavailable.

I should hope my friendly neighborhood Samurai would have something else to spend the TP on, but to be fair, it usually ends up that they WS at 140% TP anyway on Meditate, so tossing in a dance isn't a horrible idea.


Icemage

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Quote:
I was mostly thinking about how to make BRD more helpful with DD heavy groups since at all levels they are plentiful.

I have never had a melee complain about getting Minuets in a party. Ever.

I was thinking about parties Lv30-70 where it can be very difficult to find a standard tank (PLD or NIN) and/or healer (WHM, SMN/WHM, RDM). I would think that having BRD/DNC and one more /DNC would provide the necessary healing. There wouldn't be any back line which would need Ballads. BRD/DNC and PUP/DNC could make an excellent pair for supporting a party.

[Icemage]

Quote:
I was mostly thinking about how to make BRD more helpful with DD heavy groups since at all levels they are plentiful.

I was thinking about parties Lv30-70 where it can be very difficult to find a standard tank (PLD or NIN) and/or healer (WHM, SMN/WHM, RDM). I would think that having BRD/DNC and one more /DNC would provide the necessary healing. There wouldn't be any back line which would need Ballads. BRD/DNC and PUP/DNC could make an excellent pair for supporting a party.

It makes sense for PUP/DNC per my reasoning above, but I've yet to see someone try that so I can't confirm it.

Given my levelling experience with Bard, the rate of TP gain in the 30-50 level is pretty abysmal. You're not pulling at that level, but songs take 8 seconds to cast, each, so even just doing two songs (Madrigal + Minuet, for instance) eats away about 20 seconds when you figure in animation lag. That's about 1/3 of the fight where you're sitting there with just an instrument collecting zero TP. Even more so if you have to toss in a Ballad, Etude, or Prelude into the mix (which often happens).

Even with three songs on rotation (Madrigal, Minuet, Ballad) in that level range, plus engaging in melee actively, I don't think I was able to collect more than maybe 30-40 TP per fight on average. Quickstep would improve matters somewhat, assuming you can land that hit.. but requires TP to start with.

At any rate, at level 51, everything goes out the window due to elemental staves. Not switching to a staff to cast Elegy, let alone Threnody, is a bad idea, and I can think of fewer ways to kill your TP gain than swinging a staff.


Icemage

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I'm now seeing why it is difficult to get away from BRD/NIN and pulling. The following conditions would need to be met to make BRD/DNC acceptable:

Conditions for BRD/DNC
1. Additional puller available (THF, RNG, COR)
2. Party does not require Ballads
3. Tuna Sushi is acceptable
4. Light Staff not needed to stick Elegy and Lullably or is acceptable for TP gain

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

[Mog]

As funny as it sounds, I think DNC is a good subjob for SAM for tp burn parties. Scenerio?

Imagine 6 soboro samurais, all subbed dancer. They'll have more than enough TP to use drain samba, and enfeeble the mob as well.

[Icemage]

I'm now seeing why it is difficult to get away from BRD/NIN and pulling. The following conditions would need to be met to make BRD/DNC acceptable:
Conditions for BRD/DNC
1. Additional puller available (THF, RNG, COR)
2. Party does not require Ballads
3. Tuna Sushi is acceptable
4. Light Staff not needed to stick Elegy and Lullably or is acceptable for TP gain
Please let me know if I've missed anything.

The rules aren't "quite" that stringent.

You can do this on one condition - that there's two bards in the party.

BRD/NIN
BRD/DNC
DD
DD
DD
Anything (RDM, WHM, another DD, a PLD, whatever)

Without a LS party in a high level linkshell, though, getting two bards is very, very difficult.

You can use Nightingale and Troubadour merit abilities as well as a Shi'ar Manteel to cut down on some casting time, and use a Joyeuse for super fast TP gain. Bold players who have lots of -HP gears can try to macro in stuff to drop themselves into yellow and activate a Minstrel's Ring to further improve.

So... not "entirely" impossible, but probably out of plausible reach for the vast majority of players, and definitely not workable prior to level 70.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yes, but not as fast. Elegy is a much faster attack than any ranged attack. This is OK with Corsair, however.

Peacemaker COR/NIN, maybe. Martial Gun/Coffinmaker COR/RNG will give you a very dirty look, when you have COR/RNG, the BRD pulls because the COR is there to do damage and will it will be worthwhile damage.

I wouldn't want a THF away from melee in a merit setting. Too inefficient. RNG is OK.

THF has faster ranged weapons to pull with that aren't consequential to its DoT, RNG isn't going to give up his 490-600 delay weapons to pull with Loxley or a Machine crossbow. THF also has evasion bonus while RNG has the evasion of a brick wall. THF should always pull before you even think about asking a RNG, just as a BRD should be pulling if you have a COR/RNG in PT. Bard should be pulling before any of them.

I have never had a melee complain about getting Minuets in a party. Ever.

They should be shot of they do complain.

Puppetmaster I can see as a prime example of a good use of /DNC. Their WS are so unspectacular, and they're in melee anyway. RDM is less so because they suffer from caster-itis like Bards - too much time spent casting to make any melee configuration optimal.

I can actually see it for COR, PUP and possibly BLU as well against MP mobs. TP gain isn't hard for them, though COR and BLU would have to give up WS damage to make use of /DNC, which some may not wish to do. Its on my subjob to-do list regardless as DNC will be my next main on the Mithra.

[Caspian]

I have never had a melee complain about getting Minuets in a party. Ever.

I die a little inside everytime I get a March instead of a Minuet. I can't wait for the Bard update so they nolonger have excuses.