/nin > /whm

[qaitakalnin]

Ok i saw this on the whm boards, a brd/nin in a merit party. Ok so i submit to you bards here on these boards....HUH?! oK given some situations i could see brd/nin (saw a video of one tanking the bird god but with a back up crew that was really really on the ball) in some very unique situations, but a merit party? Given the right gear i could definitly see some melee happening, not enough actual dmg out put to warrent the dual wield, but as long as it dont hurt the pt.

My question though is, even in a merit party, isnt /whm way more useful, sure you get the shadows but isnt stoneskin way more effective (not to mention cheaper)? Not only that but at that lvl arent you kind of expected to assist the whm in keepin the party alive? I will admit i have never been in a merit pt and that my bard is only lvl66, but in just your normal, everyday kinda pt I would still think that /whm > /nin, except in very specific cercumstances. Opinions?

[Murphie]

I think they sub NIN because they are pulling, and don't want to die horribly on the way back to camp. At least, that's why the two 75 BRDs in my LS do it.

[qaitakalnin]

Ok but isnt stonesking and blink comparable or better than shadows?

[Murphie]

I dunno. Maybe at that level. And maybe while subbed, but possibly not. Utsusemi doesn't lose any strength when subbed, but Stoneskin and Blink very well may.

[Ellipses]

I'm not that high level, but I'd imagine not. Remember you'd have both Ichi and Ni in a merit party, and those are guaranteed misses compared to Blink's lame chance of missing and a half-leveled Stoneskin. I'd imagine the reasoning is, since you don't have time to help heal much anyway, just give the healer a little less to heal.

[Murphie]

Plus the melee all usually sub NIN at that level too, so it's not often that a lot of healing is even needed.

[Ziero]

Ni casts faster then SS and requires no mp thus the brd will never have to rest. Including the fact it absorbs melee AoEs, it's very useful against weapon mobs which are(or at least were) a common Merit point target.

[qaitakalnin]

well then i guess i am really glad i have my nin to 37.

[Icemage]

Utsusemi: Ichi and Utsusemi: Ni are used in merit parties to reduce the need for the main healer to heal you when you get hit (as mentioned above, Blink is unreliable, and you're lucky if Stoneskin will absorb a single hit for you).

It's not vastly more efficient than /WHM, but Utsusemi can get you back out and pulling again several seconds earlier per pull and makes those endless XP chains much easier to hit.


Icemage

[qaitakalnin]

Understood Icemage, i just wasnt aware that brd/nin was so much more usefull, or rather that the situations in which you would be /nin over /whm included merit parties

[Credos]

If you're in a proper TP burn PT, you should only have a RDM as healer. That being said, you better trust your RDM a whole hell of a lot to sub NIN for pulling reasons only.

Stoneskin is based on MND. Blink and SS both take a long time to cast, and to be honest I don't even use it. If you want to pull as a BRD, learn how to do it properly. You should be able to play Carnage Elegy at maximum distance, run back to camp and sleep the mob next to the party before he hits you more than once.

Honestly, for TP burn pts I think it a complete waste to sub /NIN for BRD.

[qaitakalnin]

Interesting a disenting opinion, but let me ask you this, if you get back to your pt, all the songs are still up, why wouldnt you cast stoneskin and/or blink? i mean if you have the time (and i honestly dont know what time is like for a merit pt, or roaming pt for that matter so you may not have the time), cause even if it is just for 1 or 2 hits isnt that enough to justify the time spent casting?

[Karinya]

However, if you look at the rest of that thread, you'll see some of the problems the BRD/NIN was causing... since he wasn't /WHM himself, he didn't bother ballading the healer either. Don't do that. The healer still needs ballad even if you don't.

Given that fact, I don't think the MP cost of stoneskin is significant, although you may have a point about the casting time.

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.

[Credos]

Interesting a disenting opinion, but let me ask you this, if you get back to your pt, all the songs are still up, why wouldnt you cast stoneskin and/or blink? i mean if you have the time (and i honestly dont know what time is like for a merit pt, or roaming pt for that matter so you may not have the time), cause even if it is just for 1 or 2 hits isnt that enough to justify the time spent casting?

In merit PT I'm lucky to be able to get one song off, much less two before the first mob is dead. Typically, it looks like this:

Pull > Min > pull > march > pull > Ballad > pull > Ballad.

Note these are high chain pt on Puks/Imps.

Honestly, I don't waste my time with SS or Blink because if I have 4-5 seconds of free time, I'm not doing my job properly.

Double Post Edited:

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.

Because BRD can sleep the mob, and have it ready and waiting for the melee when they are done with the first. And the melee in the PT can focus on killing the mob as soon as possible.

[Murphie]

I thought BRDs pull in merit parties because it's faster. And they can sleep one pull while the party beats on another.