/nin > /whm

[Credos]

I thought BRDs pull in merit parties because it's faster. And they can sleep one pull while the party beats on another.

Yup.

[capitalistnihilist]

But in a party full of /NINs, why is the bard pulling anyway? Get one of the warriors to bring a bow or something. I understand why bards pull for manaburns, but what's the point of having them pull for TP parties? There's pretty much guaranteed to be 2-3 better choices for puller - more HP, better DEF and VIT, going to sub NIN anyway. And it doesn't force the bard to split his time between singing and pulling while the WAR/NINs stand around waiting for the monster to come in.

I'm wondering if you have ever actually participated in a TP burn meripo. If there are WARs "standing around waiting for the monster to come in" the party sucks. BRD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any melee at pulling in TP burn.

[Murphie]

Yup.

Your edit was just too fast. It wasn't there when I posted, I swear.

[Icemage]

The melee/NIN and NIN/wars aren't main pulling because they're killing the monsters. Sure, everyone pulls in merit parties, but having the bard "scouting" for new targets while the party is still fighting the last one greatly increases your chances of completing the next link in your XP/limit chain.


Icemage

[qaitakalnin]

Ok well all good information thank you icemage. Sounds like merit pts are going to be a freakin blast i love a constant fluid party, and although my rng static isnt quite there yet we are close

[Yeargdribble]

I'm also with Icemage that /NIN is far more efficient for a good TP burn PT. Stoneskin takes too long to cast.

I also have to disagree a bit with Credos. I've found from plenty of pulling experience that 2xBallad isn't really possible while keeping two songs on the melees 100% of the time. It's much more efficient to keep Minuet+March on melees than to tag the mages with an extra 1MP/tick. I only throw out a Ballad I if I get a lucky double pull with things that link (like flies) and I have a bit of extra time.

If your PT is a good an efficient PT you won't have time to cast cures at all which renders /WHM almost useless. /RDM is decent if your PT is freaking out that you won't be able to backup heal as it as least allows your some fast cast to compensate even though you won't have curaga or -nas.

I often run into people that freak out at the though of the BRD not backup healing and that's usually because of crappy main healers. The MP you would be saving the main healer by not getting beaten on the way to camp will more than make up for you not back up curing yourself.

Most of the dissenting opinions about /NIN are BRDs that don't have /NIN available, have never tired it, and don't wanna go through the trouble and cost it incurs.

[Jei]

75 TP burn PT is a LOT different from any lower level normal PT ^^
Brd/Nin is godly here assuming you have a good set up. Usually 4 melee with utsusemi and 1 mage.

[Feba]

Just a little view on Stoneskin and Blink:


Stoneskin will absorb, at a maximum, around 350 damage. Since you'll be casting this with lower MND than an RDM or WHM, and without any native enhancing magic, this will be lowered, quite a bit.

Even if you COULD max it out at 350 as a BRD, assuming a monster hits for 150 damage on average, that's just two hits, and then one for 2/3rds damage.

Blink is just a safety barrier. It's nice when you're soloing, to take a hit for you, but on IT mobs, especially when subbed, it's very ineffective. Most times, when I leveled BLM, I wouldn't even bother to keep blink up.


Utsusemi, however, is both very quick to cast, and gives you 4 (although I beleive it's 3 when subbed?) shadows of safety. If we again assume 150 damage, this is 600 damage negated (450?). If the BRD is able to cast utsusemi:Ichi afterwards, that's another 3 shadows, so 1050(900?) damage absorbed total. Not to mention the fact that 7(6?) hits will take a mob much longer than 2.

This is still completely ignoring the fact that /WHM gives useful things like status cures, cures, raise, and other things of that nature... But you can see why a BRD would sub NIN in a PT where they have to pull.

[Karinya]

150 on a bard? Wow, those are some weak-ass mobs. Kindred Warriors do 150 on a PLD.

Do you actually get exp for killing something that pathetic?

[Feba]

I'm just making up numbers. put it at 200, 250, 300, whatever, you see it just gets more and more effective.

[Raydeus]

The melee/NIN and NIN/wars aren't main pulling because they're killing the monsters. Sure, everyone pulls in merit parties, but having the bard "scouting" for new targets while the party is still fighting the last one greatly increases your chances of completing the next link in your XP/limit chain.


Icemage

I think the part I bolded is the most important thing to notice in this discussion.

Most of the times you get invited to parties where many of the melee aren't /NIN, in these cases BRDs really need to get ballad on the RDM at all times, simply because of all the healing/fast chaining involved. And some times the BRD will even have to backup heal from time to time (DS Curaga or something) if no one is subbing NIN, that's when /WHM is better.

Now, if everyone is /NIN then the RDM will be using mp on Haste and only a few cures from AoE, in these cases a BRD/NIN owns.

I think both sides are right, but it all depends on the party setup.

[Icemage]

150 on a bard? Wow, those are some weak-ass mobs. Kindred Warriors do 150 on a PLD.

Do you actually get exp for killing something that pathetic?

80-200 points of damage. Probably a bit more, but I pull with Earth Staff and Cheviot Cape swapped in after casting, so tack on +25-30% if you like.

Thing is, Utsusemi is guaranteed damage absorption. Blink is iffy, Stoneskin is marginal, and Blink + Stoneskin takes twice as long to cast as Utsusemi: Ichi (and you can cast Utsusemi: Ni as a last ditch defensive effort if a Lullaby fails or wears off early, something which you generally cannot do with Blink or Stoneskin).

Overall, BRD/NIN in the correct party definitely outperforms BRD/WHM or BRD/RDM, but your healers need to bring their best skills to the table for it to work.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Stoneskin is based on MND. Blink and SS both take a long time to cast, and to be honest I don't even use it. If you want to pull as a BRD, learn how to do it properly. You should be able to play Carnage Elegy at maximum distance, run back to camp and sleep the mob next to the party before he hits you more than once.

Honestly, for TP burn pts I think it a complete waste to sub /NIN for BRD.

Agreed. In my career as BRD, I have never once worried about taking damage on a pull in a good burn PT. I never even touched blink or stoneskin, either. BRD gets access to some nice - physical damage gear. If a BRD doesn't have access to an earth staff at the very least, they should be shot or booted... preferably both.

And really, if you have a RDM on main heal duties, you should sub /WHM to support them. /NIN is purely selfish in that context. And believe me, you're not doing WHMs any favors by subbing /NIN. Sure, they don't have to heal you, but -na spells are high in MP cost. If a BRD can cover that for a WHM, they should.

Also, RNG and THF don't sub /NIN for pulling, they sub NIN for when they pull hate and dual wield. Utsusemi for pulls is a very minor perk. Pull at a max safe distance and taking damage should always be a non-issue, if it works for RNG/WAR, it can work for BRD/WHM.

I also have to disagree a bit with Credos. I've found from plenty of pulling experience that 2xBallad isn't really possible while keeping two songs on the melees 100% of the time. It's much more efficient to keep Minuet+March on melees than to tag the mages with an extra 1MP/tick. I only throw out a Ballad I if I get a lucky double pull with things that link (like flies) and I have a bit of extra time.

Its very, very easy to keep four songs up, regardless of speedkill/TP Burns. The way I got around it was one tier of Ballad and Minuet one fight, pull, sleep, play the next tiers of each when after I slept the mob, then I went out to pull again, sleep and start all over again.

[Icemage]

Agreed. In my career as BRD, I have never once worried about taking damage on a pull in a good burn PT. I never even touched blink or stoneskin, either. BRD gets access to some nice - physical damage gear. If a BRD doesn't have access to an earth staff at the very least, they should be shot or booted... preferably both.

And really, if you have a RDM on main heal duties, you should sub /WHM to support them. /NIN is purely selfish in that context. And believe me, you're not doing WHMs any favors by subbing /NIN. Sure, they don't have to heal you, but -na spells are high in MP cost. If a BRD can cover that for a WHM, they should.

I've done a lot of burn parties (read: 90% of my parties in the last 2 months have been burn parties of one sort or another), and the combination of smart healer + smart BRD/NIN noticeably outperforms smart healer + smart BRD/WHM.

It does demand more skill and MP conservation skill from whoever is anchoring main healing (RDM/WHM or WHM/xxx), but with good players and reasonably good or better gear that's not really an issue.

Also, RNG and THF don't sub /NIN for pulling, they sub NIN for when they pull hate and dual wield. Utsusemi for pulls is a very minor perk. Pull at a max safe distance and taking damage should always be a non-issue, if it works for RNG/WAR, it can work for BRD/WHM.

...and this has nothing to do with the fact that rangers can shoot from longer range than bards can sing plus wear speed boosting gear like Strider Boots or Crimson Leggings, right?

It's not impossible to pull without getting hit as a Bard, but it's certainly challenging on long pulls, and monsters usually get at least get a couple swipes before you can make it back to camp and drop a Lullaby unless they are very close by. I don't care how good you are at pulling, you're going to get attacked at least a couple of times every other pull or so even if you're doing everything right.

Its very, very easy to keep four songs up, regardless of speedkill/TP Burns. The way I got around it was one tier of Ballad and Minuet one fight, pull, sleep, play the next tiers of each when after I slept the mob, then I went out to pull again, sleep and start all over again.

Eh... have you done a TP burn party in the new ToAU zones as a Bard? Monsters die really fast. Most bards I see have trouble maintaining Minuet + March + Ballad II. Only the most exceptional manage Ballad I consistently in addition to this (hint: it's usually the BRD/WHMs that have this problem when they're trying to maintain Blink and Stoneskin in between pulls).


Icemage

[Yeargdribble]

Keeping up all 4 songs and still being able to consistently pull chains without ceasing in new areas is nigh impossible. Maybe in sky PTs where the mobs is alive for longer than 10 seconds you can pull this off and also manage to get Stoneskin up. It's a different story in a play like Caedarva or near the Mamool Ja Staging Point. If a mob is alive for even 20 seconds I'd be shocked. In order to keep consistent chains you simply don't have time to sing 2 songs between pulls. The on exception being if you manage to get a double pull.